Pursuant to Standing Orders 32(5), this report is deemed permanently referred to the Standing Joint Committee on Government Operations.
This report should be deemed permanently referred to the Standing Committee on Government Operations.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform the House that in accordance with Standing Order 73(1), it is the intention of the government that this bill be referred to a committee before second reading.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and referred to a committee.)
The first petition has to do with the family. The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House that managing the family home and caring for preschool children is an honourable profession which has not been recognized for its value to our society.
The petitioners therefore pray and call on Parliament to pursue initiatives to eliminate tax discrimination against families who decide to provide care in the home to preschool children, the disabled, the chronically ill and the aged.
The petitioners would like to bring to the attention of the House that the consumption of alcoholic beverages may cause health problems or impair one's ability, and specifically that fetal alcohol syndrome and other alcohol related birth defects are 100 per cent preventable by avoiding alcohol consumption during pregnancy.
The petitioners therefore pray and call on Parliament to enact legislation to require health warning labels to be placed on the containers of all alcoholic beverages.
The first petition calls on Parliament to ensure the equality of all provinces by refusing to designate one province a distinct society, if such a designation confers special status or powers not enjoyed by all other provinces.
It concerns the lack of necessity of including the phrase sexual orientation in any amendment to the Canadian Human Rights Act and asks Parliament not to amend the human rights code, the human rights act or the charter of rights and freedoms in any way which would tend to single out same sex relationships and give them some kind of special status.
I would like to table these two petitions.
(1010 )
The Speaker: Shall all questions stand?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
That with regard to the consideration of the motion of the hon. member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt with regard to a reference to be made to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, that the debate be not further adjourned.The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Speaker: Call in the members.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)
(1055 )
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
Mr. Don Boudria (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if you were to seek it I believe you would find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:
That notwithstanding any special or standing order, at the conclusion of the debate on the motion of the hon. member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, but not later than 11 p.m., all recorded divisions on the said motion and amendments thereto be deemed to have been put and deferred to Monday, March 18, 1996 at 6.30 p.m., and that during any debate on the said motion after 3 p.m. this day, no quorum calls or dilatory motions shall be received.The Speaker: Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to.)
Mr. Szabo: Mr. Speaker, at the close of business yesterday, the member from Rimouski had just finished her address to the House. I am wondering whether questions or comments can be addressed to the member.
The Speaker: The member has concluded her remarks. Because we have just passed a motion that the debate be not further adjourned, there will not be any questions or comments put.
(1100 )
So we will all know, all of the debates will now be 20 minutes. There will be no questions and comments at the end of the debate. If members are splitting their time, would they please inform the Chair when they get on your feet.
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with another member from the Reform Party.
On March 12 when my colleague, the member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, stood in the House to raise a point of privilege against the member for Charlesbourg the Speaker said the House was being faced with one of the most serious matters we have faced in this 35th Parliament. It was so serious that it did not matter that some months had passed since the incident under discussion took place, and so serious that the House should deal with the accusations forthwith.
Later that day following a short but heated exchange between two members of the House the Speaker rose again and stated that everyone would have an opportunity to speak to the issue: ``My dear colleagues, this is one of the most serious debates we have had here in this House. We shall all have the chance to speak here in the House. We are Canadians, we are democratic, and you will have the opportunity to speak''.
There can be no doubt for any member listening to and watching our Speaker as he said those words that he did assess the situation as very serious and that he was concerned that we would have the opportunity to speak to it.
I can honestly say I have never seen our Speaker look so disturbed by the events he was called to deliberate over, and I have never heard such emotion in his voice. The only time I have ever heard our Speaker use a stern and almost angry tone of voice has been during these debates.
In addition, the outpouring of emotion from members of all parties during the debate leaves no doubt for any observer that this is a very serious matter. Obviously a great number of members wish to be heard, although I notice the PC members have yet to show any interest at all in the debate.
Some MPs want the opportunity to represent the views of their constituents while others want as badly to represent the views of their party, as they are accustomed to doing, using their canned speeches prepared by the spin doctors upstairs.
It struck me this was probably the reason the government wanted adjournment of the debate on the first day. I noticed that when the member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt introduced his motion it did seem to catch the government by surprise and it was afraid to follow through and allow its members to begin speaking to the motion right away.
We watched as the government whip rushed around between the benches checking on what his members might want to say of a spontaneous nature. He made sure none of them would say anything that would embarrass the government side or be contrary to the call of the whip.
Even so, there can be no doubt the people of Canada want this matter discussed; they want it fully and publicly discussed. They want to see every aspect of the issue explored in the House where they can observe and read, if they do not get the opportunity to watch, the deliberations.
We heard the Speaker say everyone in the House would have the opportunity to speak. I repeat that quote because it is important: ``My dear colleagues, this is one of the most serious debates we have had in this House. We shall all have the chance to speak here in this House''.
Now what happens? The government effectively takes away our right to have everybody speak. It has invoked a form of closure by not adjourning the debate. I will explain for members who may not understand what that means. It means we must continue putting up speakers without interruption. If there is no one available to stand immediately when someone else sits down, the debate will cease.
Is that reasonable? It is like passing a law that people can mow their lawns any time, one at a time, starting now, but when the last mower is finished if there is no one to take his place the right to mow lawns ceases immediately.
(1105 )
Obviously people will not stay up all night starting their lawn mowers one after the other to mow the lawns. Sooner or later someone will say: ``It is too late. It is not reasonable. We will all go to bed and we will start mowing our lawns again in the morning''.
That is exactly the situation we are faced with now by this motion. I have been lucky enough to be one of the people who can rise to speak to it. However, there will come a point at which it will become unreasonable to expect any of us to be here until the small hours of the morning so that we can continuously have our opportunity to speak. It is unfair and it is impractical.
In the end, I guess the outcome of this entire debate was known even before it began, just as the outcome of debates on legislation in this place is predetermined. The government will always get its way.
This place costs something in excess of $125,000 an hour to run, but it is not a place which enacts the will of the people. It is simply a place which enacts the will of the parties, particularly the party in power. All of the debates, questions, statements and committees associated with this motion or any piece of legislation rarely change anything. In this case I am certain that will also be the case.
In the case of this motion, the most serious ever to come before the 35th Parliament, the Liberals will get their way. In the end they will get their way. They will rework the motion so that they gut it completely, so that it has not the meaning with which it started, so that they can force it through to committee where they can control the end result. The first step in that process was to amend the motion of the hon. member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt. The next step was to effectively cut off debate. The third step will probably be to make the motion disappear somewhere into committee.
They insulted the people of Canada by taking the member's motion and removing all of the words preceding the word ``that'' and all of the words after the word ``that''.
An hon. member: And that is that.
Mr. White (North Vancouver): As the hon. member says, that is that. They left only the word ``that''. It is ridiculous. It is an absolute insult to the people of Canada. They took all of the words before the word ``that'' and all of the words after the word ``that'' and substituted their own Liberal Party spin, which made the motion virtually meaningless. They suggested the actions of the hon. member for Charlesbourg might be offensive to Parliament and that we should take it in that vein rather than using the word ``sedition''.
The people of Canada could not care less if the actions of the hon. member for Charlesbourg are offensive to Parliament. The actions were offensive to them. They want this matter discussed.
They want it debated where they can see what we have to say. They would like every member to have the opportunity to stand and say what he or she thinks of the motion.
The hon. member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt placed the motion before the House because the people of Canada are offended. They have been telling us that they want this matter to be dealt with. They want us to treat it seriously. As our Speaker has indicated, it is serious. He considers it serious. However, the government obviously does not consider it serious. It has placed us almost in a position of defiance of the Speaker's words by causing us to wind down the debate within a very restricted timeframe.
For those of us on the Reform side of the House who have been standing to speak, we have been doing so because it is called representing our constituents. It is a concept which may be intellectually unattainable for some members opposite because they are lap dogs to the whip. It is totally foreign to them. I think they are far enough away from us sometimes to be foreign.
Times are changing. We are in the information age and taxpayers, the people who pay the bills to run this place, will not put up with this sort of thing much longer. They feel it is about time we started to properly represent them. They will not be pleased the debate is being shut down on this motion.
(1110 )
I like to quote a famous politician of the past when talking about things like these attacks on democracy. I like to quote him not because I admire him but because he represents the politics of the past, the old line parties and the old line ways so detested by the people of Canada.
That parliamentarian is Edmund Burke. I am sure everyone has heard of him. In 1774 he said: ``Your representative owes you not his industry only but his judgment. And he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion''. Mr. Burke made this statement more than 220 years ago, nowhere even close to the information age. The level of education was pretty low and it probably would have been true that an MP would not have been doing his constituents a favour if he sacrificed his judgment to the opinion of the voters.
Today we have the information age and people get well informed on things like the motion before the House right now. They have had the opportunity to read the communiqué put out by the member for Charlesbourg because it was faxed to every corner of the country using the tools of the information age.
In response, MPs around the country received communications about the communiqué using fax machines, Internet, E-mail and regular mail, by telephone, by all of the modern means available to constituents these days. It is a vastly different place from what is was in 1774 when Mr. Burke spoke.
Constituents today are truly interested in what happens in this place and they are able to follow what happens in this place either by reading a hard copy of Hansard or taking it off the electronic system of the Internet or by actually watching the procedures on television. They have a right to be properly represented here and to see what happens.
In the 1990s when people are well educated and well informed, I think a modification of Mr. Burke's quote is in order. I would like to hear modern politicians saying: ``Your representative owes you not his industry only but his commitment to alert you to the affairs of government that affect you so that you may become informed and so that you may instruct him on how to represent you''.
In case members are curious, Edmund Burke was thrown out of office by the election that followed his famous statement. Even 220 years ago it did not pay to insult your constituents, just as it does not pay today.
The problem is that even if every member of the House agreed today that they would represent their constituents on this discussion of the motion before the House and decided they would support the motion of the member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt in its entirety, intact, without taking away all the words in front of the word ``that'' and all the words after the word ``that'', but to actually look at it, listen to their constituents sending faxes and letters and making calls, and say yes, it is true and we should support it, the whip for the Liberal party runs around telling them they must toe the party line.
Let us imagine they decided they would support it. The problem is in order to get to that point we really have to overcome the power of this old line whip controlled system. As people learn more about the procedures that happen here they take great interest in the debate, because this debate is also a serious matter for them, as it is for our Speaker and everyone here.
This debate has come to the attention of the whole country. It is a serious debate. As they watch, listen and understand what we are saying, they begin to realize when they watch the votes what is happening here. The pressure will increase for change in the system, change that is well overdue, change that needs to be made in the information age we have entered today.
I recommend to members a television comedy on the women's network which aired each Sunday night last year. It is called ``No Job for a Lady'' and is based on the experiences of a rookie woman MP in England.
(1115 )
While the program is funny, it is also a fairly accurate portrayal of what happens in the U.K. Parliament and in this place too. The writers obviously have a good knowledge of the workings of the
House of Commons and they have no difficulty showing viewers that committee meetings and travel junkets have very little use other than to keep MPs busy between votes. Busy between engineered votes, the result of which we already know, before we even enter the House.
My colleague for Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia said it very well last year in one of his speeches and I will quote from Hansard: ``My colleagues and I on both sides of the House know, and the public knows, that what we say about a bill is of little consequence''. This could just as easily apply to a motion. ``A dozen or so people make the decisions and all the debate in the world will not change those decisions. Even if government backbenchers and members of the opposition were here in great numbers, the ministers, the people we might hope to influence are almost never here except for question period''.
It is a shame that we have a situation here where what we say about this motion will be of little consequence in the end because a few people or perhaps just one person on the other side has already decided what will happen to the motion. It has already been decided. As we continue with this debate for the rest of the day, maybe through the night, who knows, the decision has already been made. In the end when the vote comes on Monday or if it is deferred until Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, eventually the will of that one person or few people who are running everything will be seen to be the will of the House.
There is a growing awareness among the public that the deliberations here have very little relevance to the overall scheme of things. The taxpayers, the people who pay our salaries, are getting very very interested in what is happening here. They are going to be applying pressure to change the system so that we really and truly begin to reflect the will of the people here.
The evidence is out there. Parliamentary democracies around the world are finding ways to adapt to the information age. The 30 years of experience under the old system that the Prime Minister has are not going to be worth anything in the next few years of dramatic change that we are facing.
In the country I came from, New Zealand, the Citizens Initiated Referenda Act was passed in 1993. We were always told that initiative and referendum was incompatible with a parliamentary style of democracy. It was not. It all came down to political will.
We are masters of ourselves in this place. We can do what we wish. If we had the political will to support the motion of the member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, if we had the political will to be independent and if those members opposite particularly had the political will to be independent on this motion, the most important motion to come before the 35th Parliament, we would see a totally different outcome to the one we all know will be the result on Monday.
In New Zealand where initiative and referendum legislation was introduced, the people now have the power to direct the operations of Parliament. Several initiative petitions have been successful in getting the number of signatures necessary to force a referendum.
Instead of having to have a referendum at perhaps great cost to taxpayers, in each case where that happened the Government of New Zealand moved to enact legislation consistent with the will of the people. What a powerful tool. It did not even have to go to a referendum. The very fact that the people had the power to gather the signatures to force a referendum was enough to make the government enact the people's will. We badly need that here. Boy do we need that in this place.
For the moment the Prime Minister still has power over his MPs forcing them to toe the party line in defiance of the wishes of the voters of Canada. Lots of them will get letters after they vote on Monday or Tuesday. People will be watching what they do. People will know that they took out every word before the word ``that'' and every word after the word ``that''. They will know. They will read it in the newspapers. They will have heard it on television. They have seen it in this debate. They can read it in Hansard. They will know and they will send letters and faxes and will make phone calls. The message will get through.
(1120)
Times are changing. In the next election true democratic representation is going to be a bigger issue than any one of us realizes at this time. It will be the issue of the 1990s. The information age will change this House in ways members cannot even imagine today. For those members who have been here for 20 or 30 years they are going to be shocked at the changes that will take place in five, six or seven years. They will be embarrassed.
Little by little the demand for real democracy is gaining ground. Hopefully soon all members of the House will be free to build a Canada consistent with the wishes of the people who pay the bills through taxes.
No wonder MPs are held in such low regard by the taxpayers. They see very little being done in this House that reflects their wishes. No wonder they consider us to be porkers slurping at the trough. It is a well deserved label.
In the next election the political elites are going to suffer damage they cannot even comprehend at this time. In the future when a motion like the one of the member from Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt comes before this House there will be an opportunity to see the truth, to see the opposite side of the House stand one by one and truly represent their constituents. They will truly represent the feelings of those constituents instead of worrying that the government whip will look at the papers and tell them that they cannot say this but they can say that. What sort of democracy is
that? It is changing and I condemn the government for its failure to keep its red book promise to make government more open, to permit MPs to be accountable to their constituents and to start having some free votes in this House.
It is ridiculous to watch what has happened over the last couple of days. In the votes associated with this motion, 100 per cent of them stand up and vote the same way. It is ridiculous. Anyone with a brain in their head can see it is engineered. That is not a reflection of the will of the voters. It is about time some of them had the gumption to stand up and do what should be done.
I urge members of this House, on such an important motion, to stand and represent their constituents when the House votes on the motion.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in my riding we have a very proud heritage of Canadian military and reserves. I have received many communiqués from my constituents on this matter. I felt it was important that I rise in the House to comment on behalf of the people of Mississauga South.
For the information of my constituents and for others, this issue has to do with a motion moved by the member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt which stated:
Whereas the Member for Charlesbourg, acting as the defence critic for the Bloc Quebecois and supported by the then Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, released a communiqué on the letterhead of the Office of the Leader of the Official Opposition on October 26, 1995, before the referendum in Quebec inviting all francophone members of the Canadian Armed Forces to join the Quebec military in the event of a ``yes'' vote supporting separation from Canada;
That, in the opinion of this House, this action by the Honourable Member for Charlesbourg, and the then Leader of the Official Opposition should be viewed as seditious and offensive to this House and constitutes a contempt of Parliament; and consequently, the House refer the matter to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs for examination.(1125)
Subsequently a motion to amend was proposed by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons. The motion to amend basically said that the motion should be changed so that the matter of the communiqué of the member for Charlesbourg released on October 26, 1995 with reference to the members of the Canadian Armed Forces be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
Ostensibly the original motion and the amendment proposed by the government require and request the same thing. They request that a particular matter relating to the event of issuing a communiqué relating to the Canadian military and all of its ramifications be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The difference between the Reform motion and the motion proposed by the government is very simple and reflects a principle of law which is so very basic that no one could misunderstand: the principle of innocence until proven guilty.
Everyone in this place, everyone who is familiar with the issue has an opinion. However, the Reform motion with regard to this matter assumes guilt until proven innocent. The government motion assumes innocence until proven guilty. That is why this matter should be referred to the committee.
This same issue was raised by the member for Rimouski-Témiscouata yesterday when again, she accused the government of being complicitous with the Reform Party in the matter. In fact, that is not the case. It is simply for the principle of law of innocent until proven guilty. That is the only difference between the motions. Both motions require and request that the matter go to the standing committee where it can be dealt with properly.
The member for Vancouver Quadra is a very eminent scholar on these matters and has advised many governments, international as well as in Canada and the provinces. Yesterday he lamented about the ramblings that were going on about details in which there were allegations, speculation and other accusations, none of which in debate require to be proved. He lamented that this was not the place to analyse nor to do the job a committee or other jurisdictional body could do. It was like a kangaroo court, which was the term that was used. Indeed the member for Vancouver Quadra indicated that we did not have focus in the debate, we did not have focus in the dialogue, we did not have the resources to do it here. It was a stage.
The best thing to do, and I believe all members agree, is to have this matter go forward to the committee for debate. In that way the facts will be brought forward and the right things and the right recommendations based on facts rather than on rhetoric will come back to this House.
The Bloc member for Mercier also spoke on this yesterday. One point which caught my attention had to do with the timing of the communiqué. The insinuation from the member as I understood it was that it was not a problem that the communiqué went out.
(1130 )
As everyone knows, the communiqué was issued on October 26. It was a very sensitive time in the days leading up to the October 30 referendum. It was strategically positioned. It stated that almost immediately, if the yes vote won, that the francophone members of the Canadian military would be invited to join a separate Quebec. That is contradictory to even the question which was posed during the referendum.
Basically the question stated that Quebec would, after an offer was made to the Government of Canada, seek an independent or
sovereign state. The offer had not been made and has still to be addressed and presented to the Canadian government.
There have been allegations in the House that the communiqué had been voted on and agreed to by the entire caucus of the Bloc Quebecois. I do not know if those are the facts, but that will come out when the committee deals with it.
The issue is that the member for Mercier did not acknowledge that there was a critical period between October 26 and the 30 which would have had an influence. As far as I am concerned, it represents an arrogance on behalf of the Bloc with regard to that referendum.
The member for North Vancouver went on and on for some time. I wondered why he was so upset. I believe I do understand his frustration with democracy. I do understand his frustration with being a backbencher. However, I do not understand or accept for a moment that what happens in this place is not influenced by all members of Parliament.
The member for North Vancouver said: ``The Liberals will get their way. They have gutted the motion''. As I indicated, the motion raised by the Reform Party basically stated: ``This member is guilty''. We have to determine whether he is innocent. The Liberal motion states: ``This is a matter of allegation. This is a matter of facts and figures that must be presented. We will decided with all of the resources and facts and not base the decision on the rhetoric of members who are just grandstanding in order to cover up some of the facts that may come up''.
Mr. Grubel: Is it deliberate?
Mr. Hart: No one will ever be charged.
Mr. Szabo: It was interesting to read today's press on how the Reform Party has been lamenting everything that has happened lately. It is slowly starting to fall apart for them. They have had members crying in caucus. They do not know what to do to correct the record.
However, the issue that the member for North Vancouver raised was with regard to the automatic nature of decisions made here. I would refute that totally. I can give specific examples. The member knows that the House raised Bill C-7 on controlled drugs and substances. That bill was in the purview of the House for almost 18 months. Seventy substantive amendments were received in committee which changed the intent of the bill.
Another example would be with regard to private members' business. Reform members know that 11 private members' bills had passed second reading at the time of prorogation. They voted against the motion, but the government voted to allow private members' bills which had passed second reading to be reinstated and put back in the same place in the legislative process. Even my Bill C-204 which proposes health warning labels on alcoholic beverages is reinstated. It is an important bill to me and many members of the House. I was the one who had the opportunity to bring it forward, not the government. I know many members have had the same opportunity. Eleven bills are alive today because private members were given an opportunity to bring them forward.
(1135)
Although the member for North Vancouver has a problem and is frustrated with democracy, he should consider carefully that in this place it is not the government which is taking action at the whim of a handful of people. The people of Canada responded to a program outlined by each political party in the last election. Those parties made undertakings to the people to do certain things and were elected in majority numbers to this place to carry out that job.
Reform Party members are telling us that we are wrong for doing what we promised to do. I refute that totally. The Reform Party unfortunately is frustrated with democracy. I believe the right thing to do is make sure that democracy is protected in this place and that the principles of justice, particularly the principle of innocent until proved guilty be protected in this place.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier-Montcalm, BQ): Indeed, Mr. Speaker, we are living extremely serious times. I believe this week is probably the most important so far in Canadian parliamentary history. Not so much because of what a Bloc member said in a communiqué, or what was said about the Canadian armed forces outside the Commons, but because of the comments and speeches made here in this House.
We should not kid ourselves, what is at stake in the motion moved by the Reform Party, and amended by the government, is freedom of speech, the right for a duly elected member to speak, in short, democracy.
As far as I know, this is the first time a parliamentary committee is going to review a statement made by a member outside the House. I know that, in the past, parliamentary committees were called to study certain members' behaviour, or certain statements made by members in this House, within this chamber. But what we are dealing with here is a communiqué issued by the member for Charlesbourg, outside the House. And do not tell me that the communiqué was on the Leader of the Opposition's letterhead; this is common practice; the government does it all the time; it announces all kinds of programs on its letterhead, using taxpayers' money. It plays politics with taxpayers' money. It is part and parcel of a member's job to make his views known.
In this case, because we are dealing with a Quebecer who was explaining a few things in connection with the debate on Quebec sovereignty, it is a different matter, and members find it appalling.
(1140)
I think Parliament has crossed a very dangerous line, infringing some acknowledged rights. Through the Reform and government speeches, Parliament is politicizing the Criminal Code, to serve some partisan and undemocratic purposes.
Maybe some members feel the description of the word ``sedition'' as found in sections 59 and 62 of the Criminal Code is not precise and clear enough, that the Code does not cover all elements, but I doubt it, I really think that the Criminal Code answers all questions that people might have in relation to actions from outsiders wanting to incite a member of the armed forces to rebel against authorities.
I think the Criminal Code is clear, but if the Reform members or the Liberals do not agree, it is not with a motion like this one that the government or the Reform Party should say it; they should introduce a private member's bill or a government order to add to the definitions of the Code and cover some elements not now included in the Criminal Code.
They should not be impugning motives or making a case against someone because of his political opinions, as the Liberals and the Reform members are doing to a duly elected member.
I had been given the following warning: ``In politics, you will hear and see all sorts of things''. But I never would have thought that they would stoop so low as to interpret the Criminal Code for purely partisan and political purposes. The Criminal Code is an extremely important piece of legislation in this country, and I think they are now using it for political purposes.
Why? Why has this communiqué, published on October 26, 1995, been raised as a question of privilege in this House, in March 1996? I will not surprise anyone by saying there will be some byelections soon and that the Reform Party, unable to rely on its performance in the House or elsewher, reasoned that, to score points, it would have to play politics at the expense of Quebecers, that it would work for the byelection in Ontario, that in Quebec their chances are nil, but in Ontario and Newfoundland, there will be byelections and the tactic would work. So they decided to play politics at the expense of Quebecers.
Reform is playing politics at the expense of the hon. member for Charlesbourg, whom they picked out randomly, since all Bloc members made similar statements, released similar communiqués. They used the hon. member for Charlesbourg to put Bloc members and the whole sovereignist movement on trial. That is quite serious.
I know that Reform members realized they were missing the boat, because of their slightly different approach to the question of privilege they had raised at the very beginning and because of their subsequent comments. They are no longer making accusations. They have stopped making unwarranted accusations.
On March 12, 1996, the Reform member for Nanaimo-Cowichan said this, and I quote: ``-my comments call attention to the fact that in my time of 35 plus years in the military-so this is someone who knows the rules-the most serious offences were sedition or mutiny from within the ranks of the military. For it to come from an outside authority such as a parliamentarian makes it an even more serious offence''.
Although they are now trying to wriggle out of this, to say that was not what they meant, it is clear that they are accusing Bloc members, a specific Bloc member, the whole sovereignist movement, of sedition. This is extremely serious.
Why are they accusing him, accusing us sovereignists, of this?
(1145)
I will now quote the relevant passage of the communiqué, and you can draw your own conclusions. This communiqué is similar to those released by all members' offices, an unexceptional, even harmless communiqué drafted for information purposes, because people wanted to know what would occur in this or that area-in this case, the Canadian Forces.
``The day after a yes win'', he says-Not today, not right now, no matter what happens-
``The day after a yes win'', he says, ``Quebec should immediately create a Department of Defence, the embryo of a major state, and offer all Quebecers serving in the Canadian Forces the chance to integrate into the Quebec Forces while keeping their rank, seniority and retirement funds as a means to ensure a better transition''.Is this akin to fomenting sedition among soldiers, to urging them to revolt against authority? No. Finally, since we are talking about loyalty, is this what is bothering Reform and Liberal members today? The communiqué ends in this way:
-All of this expertise will not disappear with Quebec's accession to sovereignty and, personally, I think that soldiers of Quebec origin will respect the people's decision and will transfer their loyalty to the new country whose security they will ensure.Does this amount to sedition? Is this urging members of the military to revolt? No. Sovereignists, Quebec men and women are simply telling soldiers: ``The day after a yes vote, we will welcome you with open arms. If you want to come and work for the country of Quebec, if you want to ensure the security of Quebecers, we are ready to welcome you, to enlist you in a sovereign Quebec''.
Those soldiers wishing to remain in Canada have the choice of staying in the Canadian Forces. We are not exerting undue pressure on them. What is the logic behind this? Why is it that, all of a sudden, it sounds like this communiqué says such terrible things when in fact, as everyone knows already, this is what we have been discussing in Quebec for years now?
Books, programs, all sorts of things have been written in Quebec about sovereignty, about our vision, about what we planned to accomplish in a sovereign Quebec, including about Canada's commitments to foreign countries. We were saying before the referendum campaign, we said during the referendum campaign and we continue to say and explain today-government intimidation has no hold on us-what we, Quebecers, intend to do for the military as for all other citizens.
During the referendum campaign and even before, Bloc members handed out various information packages to almost every household in their ridings. They sent out the Parti Quebecois agenda, as well as the Bloc Quebecois agenda outlined in our working paper on ideas for winning, released in April 1995. As for the PQ agenda, it dates back to 1993. It was stated in very clear terms that Quebec would have an army. Quebec, as a responsible country, would honour commitments made to international organizations such as NATO. None of this is new but, all of a sudden, the Reformers woke up and raised the issue because, apparently, it pays to play politics at the expense of Quebecers.
Reformers are telling themselves: ``We have a Prime Minister who has scored political points at the expense of Quebecers all his life, and he was elected in 1993. Why not do the same? We will try to score political points at the expense of Quebecers and see if we do well out of it''. I can assure you that no one will, neither the Reformers, nor the Liberals, let alone democracy.
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The reason it will not pay off is because, contrary to the situation that existed in the good old days, Quebec is represented in this House. The people of Quebec democratically elected representatives to look after their interests. And we will stand up for ourselves. There is no way that we will leave Reform and government members a clear field to make all kinds of false representations. No way. We will set the record straight, as we did throughout the referendum campaign, and we will keep at it.
I think that I just hit a nerve. The fact that, in October 1993, the people of Quebec entrusted a group of members from Quebec with the job of looking after their interests is significant, in my opinion. I take this opportunity to thank the people of my riding of Berthier-Montcalm for the mandate they have given me.
We can see clearly today how important it is to have representatives capable of standing up for Quebec in this House because
these people would have us believe all sorts of things. The time has come to stand up and say: ``This is wrong. That us not how democracy works. This is not the kind of democracy that our forefathers have built over the years''. The time has come to show the right way.
Finally, regarding the motion put forward by the Reform Party, which was longer than the government's amendment, much was said and the hon. member for Charlesbourg was clearly accused of having made statements viewed as seditious and offensive by the Reformers. At least, they had the merit of making themselves clear. Reform members must at least be credited for saying what they think. I cannot say as much about the Liberals, unfortunately. This motion has been amended by the Liberal Party; I feel this amendment is hypocritical. They took the original motion, and removed whatever did not suit them. There is no mention of anything being seditious or offensive; the communiqué is simply referred to a House committee for consideration. What should be studied other than the communiqué itself, other than the member's statement?
In my opinion, the proposed amendment is obscure, it hides something, because the hon. members are not saying the truth. They could have acted openly and publicly by saying: ``We think what the member for Charlesbourg and his Bloc colleagues have done is unacceptable, and we want the issue to be examined by a House committee.'' Would that have been politically wise? I doubt it.
I doubt that voters, particularly in Quebec, would go for such a statement. Liberal members, being really able to express their opinion on an issue raised by Reform members, have simply decided to hide this opinion behind a small amendment.
At this point, several questions come to mind. Why should we refer the communiqué to the House committee? While we are at it, why not ask the committee to examine the Bloc's program as well? Why not start referring to that House committee all Bloc members' past and future communiqués? Why not have all that examined as well? Why not-since things are going so well-ask the House to censor the statements that we are about to make here? Why not strike a parliamentary committee on censorship? This would provide us with a committee that, given its great wisdom, would decide what could or could not be said, what Quebec members could do or not do.
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That is the objective of this whole show put on by the Reformers and the Liberals. They are true Siamese twins as regards this issue: two bodies but only one head. But I will not tell you about the level of intelligence in that head.
I sincerely think that it is dangerous to refer to a communiqué released by a member of Parliament to have that member judged by his peers.
We are talking about using a communiqué released by a politician expressing his political ideas to have that person judged by a parliamentary committee. What will be the outcome of that exercise, given that the individuals who will review the issue are for the most part Liberal and Reform members?
We already know the outcome: the accusers will be the judges, at least most of them. In what country do we live? Where are we headed? One wonders.
Those who condemn the member for Charlesbourg really want to put on trial the whole sovereignist movement-and it is indeed the case, given some of the comments made in this House. Two justices of the peace, one in Quebec and one in Ontario, have ruled that the statement contained in the communiqué is nothing more than a job offer. In spite of that, parliamentarians in this House decided to go against these decisions and engage in this political procedure. And that is dangerous.
I have a confession to make: I too made the same statement as the hon. member for Charlesbourg in my own riding. All the other Bloc Quebecois members did, whether it was to federal public servants, Canada Post employees, workers at the Canada Employment Centre, or to RCMP officers at the Joliette detachment. I told them: ``It will be nice; the day after a yes vote, you will be working in a sovereign Quebec''. There is nothing wrong with such statements. People were wondering: ``What will happen to our jobs? What will happen to us the day after a yes vote?''
It is perfectly normal to provide details, as the federalists did when they told our seniors: ``If you vote yes, you will lose your pensions''. Consequently, we had to use similar arguments and say: ``Come on, the federalists are trying to give you a good scare about your pensions. The day after a yes vote, your cheque will come from Quebec instead of Ottawa. It is with our taxes that they pay you that pension''.
It is the same with members of the military; they had to be reassured because they were wondering. When I am told that, with a communiqué, we exerted influence on members of the military or incited them to disloyalty, I think this shows a lack of confidence in the people serving in the Forces. I even feel it is an insult to them because a closer look at the referendum results would show that the vote of Quebecers in the Canadian Forces, whether male or female, francophone or anglophone, followed about the same pattern as that shown by the national results in Quebec.
Therefore, about 50 per cent of Canadian Forces members voted in favour of sovereignty and about as many voted against.
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If it is a crime to advise people about what would happen after a yes win on sovereignty, then I plead guilty. If it is a crime to reassure people faced with the nonsense put forward by the federalists, I am guilty of that too. If it is a crime to stand for the interests of my constituents, for the interests of Quebec and for sovereignty, I am guilty of that too.
If inviting people in general-and I will close with that-to respect a democratic decision and, after a yes win, to transfer their loyalty and their love to the new country, the country that would be called Quebec, is a crime, then I plead guilty. I am guilty of being a democrat.
[English]
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, Ref.): Madam Speaker, like most of the members who have participated in this debate, I feel this is a very serious matter. That issue has not escaped anyone in the House. We all feel that way.
What we have been debating over the last few days is also a very emotional issue. It is an emotional issue to me. It is an emotional issue to the members of the Canadian Armed Forces; indeed it is an emotional issue to every single Canadian.
I applaud the Speaker for the leadership he has given us by immediately recognizing the seriousness of this matter.
This debate is much more than about the hon. member for Charlesbourg. It is much more than a debate about the former leader of the official opposition. It is much more than a debate about the separatist caucus in the House. This debate is about Canada.
I am a federalist. I love this country. It is not just one part of this thing we call Canada that makes us Canada; it is the sum of the parts. It is all the provinces. It is all the people. It is every citizen. It is every man, woman and child from coast to coast to coast that makes this country Canada. If I might use the term, Canada is truly a distinct society.
Five times in my life I have had the privilege of swearing my oath of allegiance to the sovereign of Canada. The first time I was 17 years old. It was in Calgary, Alberta when I was joining the Canadian Armed Forces. I was going through some things last night, thinking about the debate we are having in this, the highest court of the land. I pulled out some old papers to see if I could find my oath of allegiance from when I joined the Canadian Armed Forces. It states:
I, James A. Hart, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors, according to the law, so help me God.
It was signed on April 12, 1973 by me and the attesting officer at the Canadian Armed Forces recruiting centre in Calgary, Alberta.
That was an important time in my life. Every member of the Canadian Armed Forces, regardless of whether they are anglophone or francophone, swears the same allegiance today. That is significant. It says they will abide by the laws of Canada.
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During the time in the navy I served on three Canadian destroyers on the west coast of Canada, I worked with francophone people. I worked shoulder to should with people from Quebec. Every one of those young people who worked on those ships with me had a very important job to do for Canadian sovereignty. They did not speak of themselves as being francophone or from Quebec or from Alberta. They talked about being proud Canadians.
An hon. member: All in English.
Mr. Hart: The hon. member is wrong in his assertion. Those people spoke French on board ships and they worked alongside anglophones as a unit, a team for Canada.
I have asked myself many times over the last couple of days and months since the referendum in Quebec what those young Canadians would say about this communiqué. I know those young Canadians would find this communiqué offensive to them.
Over the last five months I have heard from Canadians from coast to coast telling me Canadians found this communiqué offensive. It crossed the line. It brought those men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces into a debate of secession of a province. They should not be brought into this. They have sworn allegiance to the whole of Canada, not to one part.
Over the last couple of days some questions have been raised in the House about my motion. The motion represents the views of Canadians who have consulted with me for some five months now on the subject.
I am not a lawyer. I stand here and say I am an ordinary Canadian. I do not practice law and I never have practised law. I am an ordinary Canadian. With the resources at my disposal I put together the feelings Canadians expressed to me through letters, telephone calls, faxes. I put those feelings into a motion I presented in the House which the Speaker found to be in order and also to be a prima facie case.
If there is anything wrong with my motion, it is not in the drafting or in the spirit of the motion. It is in the way it is being interpreted by some people in the House who would have been against any motion that draws the line in the sand for Canadians which says clearly: ``If you cross this line, it is wrong''. That is what I was trying to accomplish. I believe I did in the intent of the motion.
The Liberals are trying to ignore the original charge of seditious and offensive behaviour. Let us talk about that for a moment. There have been accusations in the House that I have prejudged, convicted the hon. member for Charlesbourg. There is nothing further from the truth. In my remarks when I introduced the motion I said this was to be an opportunity for the member to have his day in court, for due process to take place.
If we go outside these hallowed halls and talk to the police, the first thing that must happen when a crime is committed and there is a suspect is that a charge must be laid. That is what I did in the House. I laid a charge.
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How can we be certain the Liberals will investigate the specific spirit of what my motion intends to do? We cannot. Once again the Liberals are worried about the politics of this thing. They are so afraid of offending someone from Quebec that they are willing to abandon the possible criminal aspects of this matter and put politics first. They are seeking to once again pursue the mandate of the status quo. They are concerned only with what is politically correct.
As Canadians how do we make our laws? How do we choose what is right and wrong in society? The answer is clear. The answer lies in what is morally acceptable to Canadians. That is what it is all about. It is about what is morally acceptable to Canadians, whether it be in the Criminal Code, whether it is a murder charge or stealing. That is where we draw the line in the sand. That is when we say if you step over this line you will be charged. That is what we are doing here. If that is not what the House is for, this place where we have come to represent our constituents, what are we doing here?
My motion's intent is clear. It is aimed at the House to decide if what the hon. member for Charlesbourg did was over that line. That is what I was asking. The charge had to be laid because there is no way to proceed unless a charge is laid, as there is no way to proceed in a case outside these walls if a policeman comes across a crime and a suspect. Otherwise he would have no vehicle to make his charge.
That is what I have done. I have used the vehicles and the resources available to a member of Parliament to bring this matter forward and debate it in the place it should be debated, the most open forum in Canada represented by every corner of the country, the Parliament of Canada, the highest court in the land. We should all be concerned with the integrity of the House. We should be trying to decide if what has been done is appropriate.
Yesterday I offered to co-operate with all sides of the House to get to the bottom of this situation. I discovered the Liberals had the intent to gut my motion, to rip it apart, to pull the life out of it. At the hands of the Liberal whip my motion has been torn to shreds,
which is a shame for the House, a shame for the men and women in the Canadian Armed Forces and a shame for all Canadians.
Canadians are not getting what they wanted here. Canadians wanted to draw that line to ensure that when there is a threat of secession again members of the Canadian Armed Forces do not get drawn into that debate.
It is not the same as the post office, it is not the same as a crown corporation. Those people are not the same as that. Why? Because of the oath of allegiance they have sworn to their country and to lay down their lives if they have to for their country.
I will shift to what the Liberal government has done with this matter. As a private member of Parliament on the opposition in the third party I took it upon myself to do something that should have been done right over there by the Liberal Government of Canada, which ignored the issue and did nothing. It says it did something.
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The Minister of National Defence in many newspaper articles and many media interviews called this act outrageous, that Canadians should be outraged at this communiqué. He said it was inappropriate. He went so far as to say the hon. member for Charlesbourg should be removed as the official opposition defence critic. He also said that he would consult with the Minister of Justice. He said that he would consult with the judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. He did that and we heard no more.
What did we hear from the Minister of National Defence? We heard nothing. We heard not a word. Now the government says that the judge advocate general has issued a report. Canadians are waiting to hear what this report has to say and we are told: ``We are not going to tell you. We are simply not going to tell you what is in the report''.
The judge advocate general wears two hats in this country. First and foremost his job is to administer the military justice system in Canada to make sure it operates properly. The second hat he wears is as legal adviser to the executive management team at the Department of National Defence and he is the legal adviser to the Minister of National Defence.
That is why the judge advocate general cannot release the report he was asked to write. He is the lawyer for the Minister of National Defence. He would be betraying a confidence if he did. The Canadian people are out of luck because of this situation with the judge advocate general.
It is a sad situation. Canadians would naturally expect that if the judge advocate general felt there was no basis for a charge in this regard, then what is the problem with releasing the report? One would think there would be no problem at all and it would be natural to release the report saying that nothing has been found. I guess that will not be done unless considerable pressure is put on.
I will go back for a moment to the issue of laying a charge. If for instance a police officer came upon a murder scene and he had a suspect, would he charge the suspect with murder or would he charge him with the misuse of a blunt instrument or the improper use of a pillow or a rock, or probably under this administration poor storage of a handgun? I would say that the charge would have to be murder. There may be other charges but the main charge would not be ignored. Only in this place is that done.
I ask that each member of the House consider if the action of the member for Charlesbourg was offensive to himself or herself. People watching at home, Canadians, ask yourselves the same question. Then each member of this House should do the right thing and vote against the amendment the government has put forward and endorse my motion as originally placed before the House.
Mr. Don Boudria (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, Lib.): Madam Speaker, yesterday I stood in this House and chastised the Leader of the Opposition for what he said in his response to the issue before the House. His approach was unreasonable. What he said was factually incorrect and I indicated that. Today I am unfortunately forced to do the same thing, except that what the member just did if anything is worse than what we heard yesterday.
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The member has the gall to stand before us today and tell us that his motion is correct even though he knows there are factual inaccuracies in it. For instance, he states in the motion: ``inviting all francophone members of the Canadian Armed Forces'' and so on. I have read the press release and those words are not even in it and the member has privately indicated he knows those words are not in it. Yet today he is urging the House to adopt a motion which he knows is wrong. He is just as bad as the other guys, if not worse, because he knows what he is doing is wrong.
Mr. Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville): What was in the press release?
Mr. Boudria: The press release has been read in the House.
Mr. Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville): Read it.
Mr. Boudria: Hon. members know I do not like the press release. It should never have been done. The press release should never have been released by the hon. member. We know that. The Speaker has already ruled that there is a prima facie case of privilege and the issue could be sent to the parliamentary committee with the appropriate motion, but what happened? Instead of moving the appropriate motion, the member chose to move the diatribe we have before us. Why did he move that diatribe instead of the usual motion?
Mr. Hart: Because the government would not act.
Mr. Boudria: Countless other issues have been sent to the committee on privilege. Never have I seen one with a motion like this. Only Reformers could take an issue that should otherwise work and manage to spoil it themselves.
In the speeches of the hon. member and his leader yesterday, they indicated that they were prepared to sacrifice justice on the altar of Reform Party propaganda. I do not like what the Bloc Quebecois did in the press release but what the Reform Party is doing now is just as bad, if not worse.
Mr. Hart: Where were you? You did nothing.
Mr. Boudria: The hon. member can heckle, as we would say in Glengarry, until the cows come home, but that will not change the facts. He began his speech earlier today claiming that he was an ordinary Canadian representing his constituents in this House. Well so am I.
Mr. Strahl: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I do not believe there is a quorum. I would ask you to check if there is a quorum.
And the count having been taken:
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): There is a quorum in the House.
Mr. Boudria: I was just going to do a quick check procedurally of what would have happened to the hon. member's motion had we lost quorum.
An hon. member: Where is he now? He is gone.
Mr. Boudria: It could very well have been that the issue would have disappeared. I notice that the hon. member does not seem to be in a position at this point to move a motion for quorum. In any case, while he is being lambasted by his whip, I will continue my remarks.
Let us get back to the motion before the House. What is before us is that a member of Parliament issued a certain press release. Some of the words in it are not to my liking and certainly not to the liking of the member who proposed that it was a prima facie case of privilege. Furthermore, there is a ruling by Mr. Speaker that there was a prima facie case of privilege. All of those things have been established.
What is before us now is not to determine whether or not a prima facie case of privilege exists, that has been done. Mr. Speaker invited the hon. member to propose the usual motion to refer the matter to committee. Perhaps I should not use the word invited. He indicated that he was prepared to receive the usual motion. Technically I believe that is the appropriate term. The appropriate motion was never drafted. Instead a motion which has factual inaccuracies which the hon. member himself has recognized is before us.
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That motion also has in the recital, not in the preamble, a determination of guilt and that is wrong. Yesterday an amendment was proposed by my colleague to refer the issue to the committee in the usual manner, removing from the motion the declaration of guilt simply because it is inappropriate. Even if it were appropriate which it is not, this Chamber certainly is not a substitute for a court of law to handle criminal cases. That is an issue to be dealt with by a court of law.
I see the hon. member is now in a position to call for quorum, if I can put it without referring to the presence or absence of hon. members, which I cannot refer to but if I could I would.
The hon. member across the way is now indicating his procedural expertise by comparing the private members' ballot item under my name in reference to the hon. member for Lethbridge to this issue. I will explain that to him briefly so that he can understand.
Mr. O'Brien: Go slowly, Don.
Mr. Boudria: I will try to do that too.
The issue in question, were it brought forward as a motion, which it is not under privilege and which I certainly could do and I still may, would then of course be the subject of debate in the House. The motion to refer the issue to the parliamentary committee happens later once the Speaker indicates he is prepared to receive the usual motion. The usual motion is a different thing. The hon. member can listen very attentively and we will explain all of this to him later.
Let us get back to the issue before the House today. The issue is whether or not it is appropriate to make in the motion the affirmation with regard to guilt as stated by the honourable member.
Mr. Strahl: You do not want to deal with the separatists but you want to deal with the hon. member for Lethbridge for doing his job.
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): Could we have a little order in this House please.
Mr. Boudria: Madam Speaker, I guess this is all part of the new way of doing politics.
As I was indicating before I was so rudely interrupted by the member from across the way, the issue before the House is whether or not a motion as presently worded is acceptable. It is not. I have indicated the factual inaccuracies in the preamble and in terms of the recital there is also this affirmation of guilt on the part of someone. Now that is wrong procedurally. Procedurally it is not out of order, but it is still wrong to have it worded that way.
Also, there is a reference to a criminal charge. This House will not, should not and I would argue will never handle issues involving criminal offences. That is for a court of proper competence to decide. My opinion in this case were there such a charge, a
person would have to lay an information before a court of law, probably under provincial law in the province where the release in question was released, or if the press release was circulated in more than one province, in another province as well. Who knows. In any case, that is not before us today.
What is before us today is not whether this House should transform itself into a criminal court. What we are dealing with is whether or not we should refer the matter in question to the parliamentary committee on procedure, privilege and election.
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Madam Speaker will recall that on the first day we discussed the question of privilege I indicated that the task of the committee, on which I happen to have the honour to sit, is to deal with issues involving procedure and House affairs but also to deal with such things as privilege. It is used for that purpose occasionally but not very often.
The last case I remember was in approximately 1992 when an issue was brought before that committee. To refresh the memory of the Speaker, it was a case where an individual had testified before a parliamentary committee and had used in her presentation a video which had been produced by the CBC.
The CBC producer saw fit to phone the person and threaten her with a lawsuit because she had used the material without permission, as if that were necessary when appearing before a parliamentary committee. The Speaker ruled that it was a case of prima facie privilege and it was brought before the committee. That is the most recent case that I can remember.
Although that case is quite different, this case would be brought before the parliamentary committee and things would be heard. What would the committee hear? It would hear a variety of things.
I understand that the French and the English texts of the release are not even the same. There are differences in the way in which some words are expressed. As someone who knows something about both languages, I have read them both and I think they are different. The release is stronger in one language than in the other. I happen to think it is stronger in the English text than in the French one.
The committee could deal with all of these things. It could hear witnesses, not as to whether or not a criminal offence has taken place, because that is not its job, but to determine whether or not the prima facie case of privilege referred to it is an offence to the House. That is the issue. I hate to put it so bluntly, but even Reformers can understand that. Let us send the issue to committee.
It says in the motion that this issue should be referred to the committee, yet we have been debating that for two days. There
seems to be little interest in sending it to committee, even though that is what is sought.
We, and I am speaking for my colleague the parliamentary secretary and I, have proposed an amendment which would remove the offensive words and restore the traditional form of such a motion. Guess what the Reform Party did? It introduced a new amendment, again alleging a criminal offence in the motion, even though it now knows that the committee will not hear such issue.
How serious is this? Parliament is bigger than all of us. It was here long before I came, even though I have been in this building for a very long time. It will be here long after I go, long after the Reformers go and long after the Bloquistes go. What we owe to this place, to this institution and to this country is justice and not the kind of opportunism which we have been witnessing over the last two days.
[Translation]
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Madam Speaker, this debate is very sad for Canadians, and it is very sad for Quebecers because it casts a glaring light on the lack of understanding of a major event that, ultimately, is the source of this conflict.
That fact is that a different and distinct people held a referendum on October 30. The level of participation was 94 per cent, and the yes side lost by a very narrow margin.
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This referendum was held on the sovereignty of that people, but with an economic and political partnership with Canada.
Quebecers are looking for a way out of the impasse, because it is impossible to settle the constitutional issue which has gone unresolved, despite its urgency, for more than 30 years. Almost 50 per cent of Quebecers-and probably more than that today-know that no solution will come through minireforms inside Canada. I think a majority of Canadians also think this country needs courageous leadership to face the real facts.
To shed a little light on the issue, let me tell the House that preparations by a sovereign Quebec to provide for its own defence, whatever form it may take, is included in the partnership proposal. It deals with Quebec's participation in NATO and NORAD as a full-fledged country. Debate on this issue has been going on for a long time.
When I was a program adviser for the Parti Quebecois, I took part in seminars organized by academics and attended by federalist and even royalist professors from the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean, on the theme of sovereignty and defence. The issue has been discussed. We had to deal with it in a responsible way then,
and we still have to do so now. That is why we have seminars and discussions, and that is why questions are being asked too.
During the referendum, Quebec soldiers and officers looked at what was happening and at survey results, and they wondered: ``What will become of us?'' And some had reasons to worry. Learned scholars wrote newspaper articles where they said that as a sovereign state Quebec would need this or that kind of armed forces, this or that kind of a defence system, to meet its international obligations.
The Parti Quebecois, in its platform and in the information it released on sovereignty and the referendum itself, included details on this issue. The hon. member for Charlesbourg, critic for national defence, was asked what would happen to Quebecers the Canadian Armed Forces, what would happen to these Quebec soldiers and officers, would they still have a job, where, when and why.
It was the natural, normal and responsible thing to do for him to say what he thought would happen and what he knew would happen. It never was our intention, our goal or our will, at least in any discussion I took part in, to ask these Quebec soldiers to switch allegiance before the results of the referendum were known, before we had the support of the majority of the population in Quebec.
We were simply getting ready, and we acted in a very responsible way. We did it openly and publicly. We did not try to hide anything. We made it clear in all the documents that were made available. If this act seemed seditious, why was the issue not raised before?
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It is totally incomprehensible and inconsistent, unless the goal here is not to reassure the population nor to tell the truth. It is totally inconsistent and illogical. It is absolutely dangerous, because it arouses strong feelings. It is absolutely dangerous, unless the goal is not to respect the people of Quebec and the democratic choices they make.
The lesson to be learned, the bottom line here is that, even though we were elected on a platform that was widely known, this House does not accept that the people of Quebec is preparing openly and publicly for its own sovereignty.
I deeply regret what I will not call Reform's motion but its call to intolerance, and a refusal to understand where things are now in Canada, as I have said before and will say again. And this may be more an expression of their indignation because they do not form the official opposition. But what kind of official opposition would they be? And what would they have to offer to Canadians? Understanding the situation in Quebec? Helping the country out of a situation that has significant social, economic and political implications-and a situation we want to get out of, for our part? No.
Maybe the sole purpose of this motion is to prepare for the next elections, which will surely be an excuse to go about badmouthing Quebecers and Quebec.
This does not surprise me on the part of the Reform Party. I am disappointed but not surprised. What surprised me though and disappointed me even more was to see the Liberal Party, which is in power and is responsible for Canada's future, also give in to the temptation to badmouth Quebec.
There is not even the shadow of a doubt that if the Liberal Party is voting today on this proposition, this means that, according to them, charges could be brought, since otherwise there would not be any investigation. Therefore, this means that the Liberal Party thinks that charges could be brought. They do not want charges to be pressed but by referring the matter to the committee, they are implying that some charges could be brought.
It would seem that the government party also wants to badmouth Quebec, and to deny what is going on.
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I deeply regret that it did not close the matter. If there had been the slightest doubt right after the referendum, would this great party have waited four months before raising such an important question which monopolizes the proceedings of the House at the present time?
Would this great party then be unworthy of the public's trust? I believe that the Liberals, the party in power made a mistake. But when one has made a mistake, it is never too late to retract.
I wish to inform you that we are all guilty of the member for Charlebourg's felony, his potential felony, according to the party in power. If, whatever means are used, you want us out of here, others will be elected with stronger majorities, other felons, because our only felony consisted in preparing democratically to have our own country, while thinking, of course, that Canadians would be sad. We understand that, but would they also democratically accept that Quebec become the master of its own destiny? Would they accept to negotiate a partnership, and to discuss, as Canada now does with the United States, the organization of the continent's defence?
Yes, we need an army to organize our defence and take part in peace missions. We only acted in a responsible and normal manner in preparing Quebecers for that. If doing something responsible, normal and based on democracy, on the express condition of democracy, is a felony, if it is potentially seditious, then sovereignty itself is potentially seditious, democratic though it may be.
This debate should at least allow us to show very clearly that we are the representatives of the Quebecers, Quebecers who seek to be
sovereign, who asked for arrangements but to no avail, who wish to maintain ties.
The people of Quebec will never forego its identity. And if the members opposite cannot accept the fact that, as sovereignists members, we respect Canada-because we do-we respect this country because we want a country of our own and we want it to be respected. But, if they cannot accept the fact that we form a people, then the least one can say is that a vague, difficult and confused period is awaiting Canada.
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We understand that the October 30 vote was a shock. It was for us too. And bear in mind that if it had been up to us, we would not be here today. We would rather be busy negotiating with Canada, finally getting ready to give our serious attention to the economic, social, political and cultural framework, to stability and the future, to problems important to everyone.
I make an appeal. I know that I am speaking on behalf of all Quebecers. This Parliament must be able to accept the course of history. We are a people and we still seek our sovereignty. We will attain it; we will organize ourselves. We respect Canada, but we expect to be respected as a people. And any attempt to crush us, to stop us, to silence us, to broaden-as the Reform proposal does-just for us the meaning of sedition will take us well away from the primary responsibility of this Parliament, which has the weighty task of preparing the future, of understanding the situations, of understanding that this people will not disappear into thin air, of co-existing with them and of respecting them.
It is my deep hope that this debate, instead of further adding to the misunderstanding, the anger and the intolerance, will at least give us an opportunity to say: ``There is no use wishing that we would disappear. You may get rid of us, but there will be others to take our place''.
[English]
Mr. Ray Speaker (Lethbridge, Ref.): Madam Speaker, in my remarks today I will make two basic points. I will look at the purpose of the motion before us and I will look at the implications of the motion in terms of the future.
The hon. member for Mercier said very clearly it is the intent of the Bloc Quebecois to do everything in its power to move toward separating Quebec from the rest of Canada. It wants to do it under what it calls the democratic process and open discussion. That sounds fine as it is.
However, we must look at the motion before us in that context, what we are doing specifically here today. We are leading as the Reform Party a debate on a question put clearly before the House by my hon. colleague, the member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt. In his remarks he said: ``The question to be answered is whether the member is guilty of offending Parliament and in the opinion of the House is the hon. member for Charlesbourg guilty of sedition''.
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We ask that question and place it before this assembly so that bridge can be crossed. We all know another referendum in Quebec is in the waiting. It is there being considered and planned. We are in the period of calm before the storm. When will the storm occur? Maybe in June, maybe in September or possibly in early 1997.
We also know that mixed in with that will most likely be a provincial election in Quebec. There will most likely be a federal election in Canada in the mix of that scenario.
I believe before we move into the storm of elections, of pronouncements, of adversaries and partisanship we have a period of calm when we can consider some questions that will be raised at that time. We are raising one very important basic point here, the question of whether a member of the House put himself in a situation which took away from the privilege of other members or was offensive in his actions. We in the Reform Party believe those actions were offensive.
The question of whether it is seditious should be considered by the committee on procedure and House affairs. If it is and the House rules and the law of the country do not deal with it appropriate, the committee of procedure and House affairs can make a recommendation on how to handle that specific situation in the future. Maybe related things will happen during a major discussion that will occur 6 to 12 months from now about the future of the boundaries of Canada.
There are other question which have already been raised. They were raised in discussions during and prior to October 23, 1995. The deputy premier, Bernard Landry, contacted foreign diplomats in a bid to win support for immediate recognition of Quebec's sovereignty in the case of a yes vote.
Premier Parizeau said the Quebec treasury and its pension fund would set aside billions of dollars in preparation to defend the currency of Quebec. The question is do they have a right to make those statements? Do they have a right to make those commitments within Canada? Are they acts of sedition? Other situations will occur in the same way with regard to boundaries, the use of currency, pensions and the debt of the country. There are many other situations that will be put on the table as we enter into this potential debate that lies ahead. We must consider those now.
What happened in the situation before us today? The hon. member for Charlesbourg, with the approval of the Bloc Quebecois caucus, directed a communiqué to the armed forces. It was not a knee-jerk reaction or something thought up in a few moments. The letter was well planned. It was part of the campaign and it was approved by a body recognized in Canada as the official opposition, a major part of this democratically elected Parliament of Canada. A major decision was made that they would send a communiqué to the armed forces urging them that if they wished to leave the Canadian army and defect to what would become a Quebec army, they could do so and they would be protected in doing that.
What right did the member have to do that? We do not believe the member had the right. We believe the act was seemingly seditious. It was an act to break up Canada saying that our Canadian army could be eroded by what in a sense could be an enemy of our nation as a whole.
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What if some other country tried to do the very same thing? What if some country offshore of the North American continent said to our army personnel that they could leave and support another side of the argument. In case we were in a conflict, how would we view that kind of a situation? That would be totally unacceptable.
It is important that we cross the bridge and that this matter be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and dealt with in haste. It should not be left on the table for a long period of time. I hope that early in this session, by the end of April or early May, we can deal with the matter in Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
Then the matter should come back to the House with a recommendation to clearly deal with this specific instance. Also I think that we should look at the broader questions that are implied by this specific matter. We will have to cross other roads and bridges as well in June of this year or September or possibly early into 1997.
The committee to which we are referring this matter has a heavy and major responsibility in determining the future of this country and how we deal with some of these matters.
The Reform Party of Canada has placed a discussion paper before Canadians. We talk of 20 terms and conditions that must be met. Then we are asking Canadians to add others that they think should be added to it.
It is time to look at this question. A part of our country is going to leave. In this instance Quebec says it wants to leave Canada. If that happens, if a democratic vote takes place, what are the terms and conditions by which that separation should occur?
The hon. member for Mercier said that Reform Party members are slowing up the process and are doing this for our own political gain with the discussion and setting out the 20 terms and conditions.
Nothing could be further from the truth. That is absolutely not true. We believe that the matter in dispute must be dealt with, and hopefully settled by very democratic means. The terms and conditions by which those negotiations take place should be set out. It is incumbent on the Liberal government to do that. At the present time little has been said about terms and conditions. That says this problem is going to go away.
The hon. member for Mercier in her comments a few moments ago said: ``It will not go away. If the current Bloc Quebecois members disappear and are not elected again to this body, there will be a new group somewhere that will fight for the cause of the separation of Quebec''. I am sure that is true. Some 30 per cent of the people in Quebec are very committed to separation no matter what the consequences are, economically, socially or politically. They want to push ahead to have their own boundaries and their protection for a culture that they feel will survive under those insulated conditions.
From my own perspective I am not sure that can happen in this new world of technology and communication, this new world of openness both economically and socially. That is one of the reasons I cannot agree with the concept of separation even beyond the great argument of keeping Canada together because of the great future it holds.
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The other argument that has been placed before us with regard to the hon. member who signed the communiqué on behalf of the leader of the official opposition, now the premier of Quebec, Mr. Bouchard, is whether in the motion we placed before the House asking whether sedition has occurred is imposing on his right to freedom of speech. What are the limits to freedom of speech within Parliament or within a country? Have we the right to speak of breaking our country apart without penalty or consequence?
We elect people democratically. We argue issues. We agree on issues. I am sure this House would not agree if a vote were taken here for Quebec to leave. In that context, was the motivation of the hon. member proper? Could it be included in the definition of freedom of speech?
He has said to the armed forces: ``If you want to leave, come with the Quebec army''. Is that not eroding the integrity of our country? Is there no penalty for that kind of thing? That is the key question which has to be answered.
Every country must have rules to maintain its integrity. There are limits to what can be said and what actions can be taken. This was not only the spoken word of the hon. member; it was a request for action on the part of members of the armed forces to leave their employment to go to the Quebec army. It was a deliberate undermining of the integrity of our nation.
Can we accept that? I do not think so. If we want to have tolerance and understanding of one another with regard to culture, ethnic identity, religious attitudes, social beliefs and a variety of ideologies where we work together and let all prevail as forces within our society, that is fine. However, when it comes to the point
where a group of people or a single individual takes away from the integrity or to intentionally erode it, can we accept that? What would our country be if we allowed its most extreme enemies to do that?
Let us say, for example, that we were still in the cold war with Russia. Would we allow the Russians to come in and take over part of our army? Would we allow them to come over and take over part of our natural resources? Would we say: ``Fine. Go ahead and do it. It is no problem?'' What then would be the integrity of our country?
There must be some kind of rules to protect what we are doing. That is why we are referencing this matter to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. It can look at the issues and rule clearly on them. There must be rules for this kind of behaviour. If the current rules were violated by the hon. member, then the member, on behalf of his caucus, must pay the consequences. That is the responsibility that the hon. member for Charlesbourg will have to take. I believe it is incumbent upon him to accept it in those terms.
Where do we go from here? Parliament has the power to deal with the matter. It is clearly within the terms that are provided for us in Beauchesne. It is also provided in our House rules and orders.
We should look at all aspects of the issue, not just the narrow aspect of the communiqué itself and whether it was a good document or a bad document or whether the member should not have sent it out. We can examine this matter, not only in the narrow context of the communiqué itself. We can examine whether the hon. member's actions constituted sedition. We can look at whether the rules of Parliament and the laws of our country are adequate enough to deal with these kinds of situations. We can look at other acts by members of this assembly which are not only a contempt for Parliament but an act of sedition.
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We can look at a broad range of those things in committee and come back with a comprehensive report that will do our country proud and maintain the integrity of this nation.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean H. Leroux (Shefford, BQ): Madam Speaker, we are looking at a case submitted to the House through a motion of the Reform Party. We are entitled to ask what is going on in this House.
We are into our second day of debate on this issue and, meanwhile, important things are going on in Canada that should be dealt with, and the deficit continues to grow. In fact, during these two days, the deficit will have grown by $280 million. I think that we in this House would have many other things to consider rather than discuss a document that I would characterize as a job offer to Quebecers who now serve in the Canadian Armed Forces.
The motion brought forward by the Reform Party talks about francophone members of the armed forces. However, it is clear in the document that it is addressed to Quebecers. Last Monday night, in Montreal, the premier of Quebec, Lucien Bouchard, met with representatives of the anglophone community and opened his arms to them. This document is in the same spirit. It is addressed to Quebecers, all Quebecers who are interested.
I will take the document and review it with you because there are important things in it that have to be looked at.
The document was translated in Canada's both official languages and members will remember that it was released on October 26 of last year, that is about four months ago. It has already been four months since the document was released, and thank God Canada is not governed by the Reformers because it took them four months to react on a document that, to me, is nothing more than a job offer.
I would like to look at certain parts of the document with you and make some comments. On page 2, it says:
Mr. Jacob believes that Quebec needs a defence force, especially to watch over and intervene on its territory-This refers to the territory of Quebec which, on October 26, was a would-be country. For those who do not remember, the referendum was held on October 30. The member said in his document that we would have to develop certain policies. There is nothing in it that says that members of the armed forces should vote yes in the referendum. In his document, the member never incited Quebecers who serve in the armed forces to anything. The document was released in Quebec. Nowhere in it does the member ask members of the armed forces to vote yes in the referendum.
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You know, we can imagine that people were talking about politics on the military bases around October 25 and 26, because soldiers do have the vote. They have the right to vote and they have the right to be informed about what is going on. There was a referendum going on. I think that the Reform Party does not know what a referendum is and did not know what the last one meant for the future.
Had the referendum been won, Quebec would be on its way to becoming a sovereign country. During the referendum campaign, we proposed a partnership with the rest of Canada and, of course, it was clearly stated that after one year of discussions with the rest of
Canada, Quebec would have been entitled to declare itself a sovereign country.
What would have done Canada with its extra soldiers? I sit on the national defence committee and right now, we are studying ways to downsize. We are reducing the number of soldiers in the Canadian Armed Forces.
Quebec contributes about 24 per cent of the national defence budget. However, we do not get that share in defence spending, we receive a lot less. At that time, I think it was normal for the Bloc Quebecois' critic-the hon. member for Charlesbourg was and still is the Bloc's critic-to set out the facts and to inform Quebecers who are members of the Canadian Armed Forces of what would happen if, and only if, the yes side were to win. He did not say in his communiqué that the yes side was going to win, he did not ask them to vote yes, he only told them that should the yes side win, Quebec would create its own army and that it would only be normal for trained soldiers who wanted to to join the Quebec army.
If some soldiers want to stay in the Canadian forces after a yes win, they can do so. I can hardly believe that we are discussing this motion today. When interviewed on the subject, the Reform Party defence critic at the time, the hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands, in British Columbia, said:
[English]
``But Reform MP Jack Frazer said: `Jacob's press release has been misinterpreted. I don't think this can be considered inciting mutiny', said Frazer. `We have to accept that in the Canadian forces right now are some people who were in favour of separation. From a Canadian point of view they'd have to relinquish their commitment to us and swear allegiance to Quebec. Had there been a separation this would have happened'''.
[Translation]
The member who said that was in the air force for several years. He is a colleague for whom I have great respect. He said that on November 4, in other words after the referendum and after this statement, and I think that the member was quite right to say what he said.
You see, the Reformers perhaps think that when Quebecers hold a referendum on Quebec's sovereignty, it is just so we can try to negotiate a little bit more for ourselves.
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But that is no longer it at all. Take my own case and that of most of my colleagues. We were born in Canada, I was a Canadian and still am, I was Canadian to the core, I grew up in this country. Even at a concert, as one of the Petits Chanteurs de Granby, I sang O Canada. That was meaningful for me at the time. Now I am older and wiser.
In the first referendum held in Quebec I voted yes. At the time I wanted to give my premier, René Lévesque, negotiating power. At the time, I believed that it was perhaps still possible for Quebec to survive as a people, as an entity, within this country. I continued to reflect on the question. I came to the realization, and I still believe, that this is no longer possible.
There are two countries within this country. That is what must be understood. When he made his statement, the member for Charlesbourg was perfectly within his rights. We were in a referendum period. It was important at that time for us to inform people, to explain things.
If I may be permitted, I have here a document that summarizes the various positions, militarily speaking, of a sovereign Quebec. You will understand that these documents were prepared before the referendum. It is normal, in preparing for an important event, to have documents.
One part of this document, which is a document drafted by the Bloc Quebecois, says: ``Without necessarily creating large armed forces, Quebec could nevertheless adopt a coherent defence policy suited to its needs''.
I am a member of the Canadian national defence committee. It is the same thing there. We try to have a defence policy suited to our needs and aspirations. If one takes a closer look, the vote of our young soldiers on and around bases, because those in Quebec did vote in the last referendum, is comparable to the vote in other areas. Actually, there are people in the armed forces who are inclined to vote yes to a referendum. Not all of them are sovereignists, but there are some among them. I would say there are as many there as in other groups in society.
This does not mean they are traitors, far from it. They have sworn an oath and they stand by it as we speak. They carry out the duties assigned to them, and they do it well.
They do their job well and very often they have to fight to preserve their language and their culture. Francophones who are in the Canadian Forces have to fight on a daily basis to speak their language.
The hon. member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Meritt, the author of this motion, seemed to believe and appeared to say that there is total and perfect bilingualism in the Canadian Armed Forces. I have here a quote from this member. In 1994, there was a reform, and suggestions were made to the government. A joint committee of the House and Senate travelled all around Canada to see what had to be done and then made recommendations to the government.
Now, the member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt was very frustrated during his visit to Quebec. I have a document here saying ``French only briefing angers MP'', a press clipping of the time, dated May 8, 1994. The hon. member for Okanagan was frustrated because the briefing at a Quebec base was in French. This frustrated the poor man since he does not understand French--
there was interpretation into English-he felt frustrated. So the hon. member says:
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[English]
``The English speaking committee members were provided with translators who translated while the briefing was going on, but for Hart that was small consolation. You can bet that if the situation were reversed there would have been screams of outrage''.
[Translation]
I toured the country and, as you know, in several places we accepted briefings by members of the Armed Forces who did not speak French, yet that did not frustrate us in the least. On the contrary, it was no surprise at all.
I do not mean to say that efforts are not being made, for they are, but one needs to be consistent when making statements in this House. At that time, the hon. member was surprised to hear French being used in the Armed Forces, and surprised that it was used to address guests on a francophone base in Quebec. That surprised him. Probably he was not familiar with the Official Languages Act at that time, since he was a new member.
I think it is important to tell it like it is. Quebec, if it becomes sovereign, has set itself some objectives, which I shall read because they are so close to what we are hearing here: ``To ensure that Quebec's commitment to the installation of a lasting peace and the recognition of international law as the basis of relationships between the nations will be translated into concrete actions subscribed to by all the people of Quebec''.
It was also stated that ``a sovereign Quebec will make concrete commitments in this regard, and these will be given priority once the post-independence transition period is over-and will oppose any use of force as a solution to disputes between nations''-I believe that is to be expected, here in Canada-``will seek active membership in the United Nations Organization; will seek to become an active member of the Organization of American States, the OAS, and work with it in building; will seek to be part of the UN peacekeeping forces''-according to our means, Madam Speaker-``and to maintain its commitment to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, NATO, NORAD''. And so on.
There is therefore absolutely no doubt that the document which is the subject of the Reform Party's motion was what I would call a job offer. Its aim was to provide some security to people in the Canadian armed forces-young Quebecers who are in the Canadian forces-and let them know that, if Quebec became sovereign, they would have a place in the forces, a career in the Quebec armed forces.
This is why I ask you to consider this document for what it is, a job offer and an update.
[English]
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley East, Ref.): Madam Speaker, it is a privilege to speak to this motion. Unfortunately because of the government's actions on limiting debate not all members of the House will be permitted to speak to what the Chair has ruled to be the most serious issue ever brought before the 35th Parliament. That is a shame and the Liberal government which brought forward the closure motion should rightly be ashamed. The people who are watching the debate can see the Liberal actions for what they are, which is an attempt to squelch honest debate on the topic.
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I believe I am allowed to say that in the debate Liberal and Bloc members have been very economical with the truth. They have not been willing to deal with the crux of the original motion. The chair has ruled that it is a prima facie case of privilege which should be brought before Parliament and that every member should have a chance to debate it. They have not been willing to deal with the motion.
Just so that people will know, the Liberals have eliminated every word before the word ``that'' in the original motion, and every word after the word ``that'' from the motion of the member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt. In other words they have completely emasculated the motion and left it meaningless at this stage. As I argued in my address, the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs can do almost nothing with what is left.
Canada's Parliament is really Canada's heart. It is one of its most vital organs and the life and direction of the entire country is or should be represented here in the House. I know we are dealing with the amendment but the original motion after the preamble read:
That, in the opinion of this House, this action by the Honourable Member for Charlesbourg, and the then Leader of the Official Opposition should be viewed as seditious and offensive to this House and constitutes a contempt of Parliament; and consequently, the House refer the matter to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs for examination.Parliament is like a living organism that can tolerate all kinds of trials and body blows and many kinds of disease. However when something strikes at the very heart with an intention to undercut its authority, then Parliament must react like any other organism. It must move to defend itself.
There may be disagreements, even strong disagreements in the House among members of different parties. We all accept that as part of a healthy debate. They are the growing pains of a healthy, vital society. However, when it becomes the purpose of one
member inside the House to strike right to the heart of this institution and then to abuse the privileges of the House in order to do it, then the House must react to that. It must deal with that member just as a person would fight back against somebody who is striking at their heart. This charge is different from other more political charges. This is far more serious.
It was agreed by the Chair that our original motion was designed to make the matter clear and to bring the issue to a head, to say that this is not just a discussion of political expediency or desire for one member to put forward a political agenda. It was designed to bring forward the case that this could be seditious and that the House may wish to view it as seditious when we had a chance to review it and send it off to committee.
I will go through a few of the logical questions which spring from the original motion about what the member for Charlesbourg said and what was done. Allow me to quote from his controversial news release. ``A sovereign Quebec will have need of all Quebecers now serving in the Canadian Armed Forces. Quebec needs a defence force to watch over and intervene on its territory, to participate on foreign peace missions and to respond to local needs. Quebec will have need of all Quebecers presently enlisted in the armed forces. The day after a yes win, Quebec should immediately create a department of defence, the embryo of a major state, and offer all Quebecers serving in the Canadian forces the chance to integrate into the Quebec forces while keeping their rank, seniority and retirement funds''.
The intent of the document is clear, but what things in it and in the actions could one consider as to whether it is seditious or not? I will put forward a few ideas.
First, the timing of the release of the document would be all important. In other words, it would show that the document was not a joke and not idle chatter, that it was not simply arrogant boasting. Its release would have to be timed to have maximum impact. This timing would show the true motive of the writer. This document would be released to maximize its impact against the state and to maximize the probability of the military actually deserting the Canadian Armed Forces and supporting a new regime.
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In this regard the hon. member for Charlesbourg sent his document to the armed forces bases on October 26, just a few days before the critical October 30 referendum. It was a time when excitement among separatists was nearing a fever pitch and it was an explosive week in the history of Canada and Quebec. There could be no better time to appeal to the sentiment of separatists within the armed forces than just a few days before a potential victory result at the polls in Quebec.
The second consideration should be that of authority. If the hon. member was not from a recognized party, if he had been an independent member and did not have a widely recognized influence, it would have had perhaps less authority and power within the House of Commons. In that case a press release urging sedition would be taken less seriously in one sense because of where it came from.
However, the hon. member is a member of the official opposition. He stood arm in arm with 52 other members at the time, having as their sole purpose the removal of Quebec from Confederation. This is already a formidable challenge to the House and the member's intention was in line with the intent of all the other members of that party.
I remind the House that the hon. member is the defence critic for the Bloc Quebecois. As such he has a special stature in the House and a special obligation in question period and standing committees. He has a research budget to back him up and he has all the privileges accorded to an opposition critic.
I remind hon. members that the hon. member for Charlesbourg is a member of the Standing Committee on National Defence. As a matter of fact he was the vice-chairman of the standing committee on defence, the voice for the Bloc Quebecois to the Canadian Armed Forces. He is the voice of the Bloc to all Canadians on the military policy of the separatist movement.
Membership means he has access to privileged information, inside knowledge, an inside chance to tour facilities which acquaints him with the strengths and weaknesses of Canada's military establishment. Membership on the defence committee also allows him the opportunity to meet the most important people within the Canadian Armed Forces, and potentially to get to know, and even if he wished, to plant the seeds of separatism within Canada's own defence establishment.
It is a special affront to this House and to every Canadian that a member might have used his position of privilege and perhaps even privileged military information given to him by this House in an attempt to turn the military establishment against the very heart of our country.
It is interesting that the hon. member said that the day after a yes vote Quebec would have its own department of defence. Who would staff the headquarters of this Quebec national defence establishment? Who would be the one to direct the armed forces? How would it be set up? The only people who have that expertise in Canada are now working for the Canadian Armed Forces. Was there another communiqué that went out that was actually addressed to the senior management that said: ``Let us get this rolling and get the armed forces organized tomorrow''?
Another important indication of the writer's motive was the letterhead he used. It was the letterhead of the Leader of the Opposition, not even the member's own letterhead. The leader at that time was Mr. Lucien Bouchard, a name very well known and respected in Quebec. He has gone on to become the premier of Quebec.
The use of the leader's letterhead added legitimacy and political weight. It added the tremendous asset of public recognition of the person sending the communiqué. It was much more likely to have an effect on the French speaking armed forces personnel than if the release had been written on the member's own letterhead.
Where the appeal was directed is also relevant. It was not sent willy-nilly to all armed forces personnel in Canada. It was targeted toward certain people for maximum impact. It was sent to francophone forces in Bosnia and to the military school in Kingston where a large number of people from Quebec are in training.
This was not just a useless appeal to sentiment. It was a strong appeal, complete with salaries, seniority and benefit arrangements carefully crafted to appeal strongly and to encourage nationalist sentiment. It was written to succeed in its purpose and had the federalist cause failed in the referendum, it may have worked indeed. Who knows what disastrous consequences could have befallen the Canadian Armed Forces and the people of Canada because of it?
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I note the member's release urged potential recruits to the Quebec army to be prepared to intervene on its territory. I do not know what that means but intervening on the territory when it is not even its own country yet is a very scary proposition.
This release was carefully timed, authoritatively drafted and sent to the people most likely to defect. The former leader of the Bloc Quebecois did everything short of actually signing the document himself. Why did he not sign that document? It was on his letterhead. It was being sent in order to recruit an army for his own purposes. I would say he did not sign it because he knew what was likely to happen. He was likely to be called on the carpet for sedition. He let his flunkey from Charlesbourg sign it for him.
That is exactly what happened. It was on his letterhead and he would not even sign it. He should have signed it himself. If he had the guts to bring it forward, he could have at least put his signature to it. He did not do it because he knew we would be debating it in the House and he would have to face the Reform Party even if he did not have to face the weak-kneed Liberals across the way.
We have moved to have this matter referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs for examination. We have made a charge and we want the committee to examine it. This is a legal process that should be used in the House of Commons. Beauchesne's sixth edition, citation 28 refers to a Speaker's ruling from 1959. It tells us about the process. It states in part:
Members of the House of Commons, like all other citizens, have the right to be regarded as innocent until they are found guilty, and like other citizens they must be charged before they are obliged to stand trial in the courts. Parliament is a court with respect to its own privileges and dignity and the privileges of its Members.Parliament is a court. First the charge comes. Next is the consideration of the charge. That brings me to the amendment moved by the Liberal government, one that would totally emasculate the Reform Party motion.
Suppose somebody robs a bank. The person is caught and they would like to bring charges. What do they do? Do they come forward and say they would like to charge that money is missing and they would like to get together and talk about it? Of course not. They would bring forward the evidence, determine it is a prima facie case, and then charge the individual with bank robbery.
In this case we would charge the member with sedition. We have to charge him with something. We cannot suggest that we get together to shoot the breeze. We have to charge him with something and we had. We had charged him until the Liberals completely neutered the motion by taking out all the words before ``that'' and all the words after ``that''. They will just say that is that and talk about it in committee.
Mark my words, this matter will go to committee and it will be lost and gone forever. The way to eliminate it is to bring it forward, send it to never never land where the committee can use every procedural gong show effort in order to make sure it never sees the light of day again.
This matter should have been discussed in the House of Commons. Closure should not have been invoked. We should have been here as long as it took to discuss the issue to its conclusion.
It is not without precedence in this House that the Liberals are afraid to tackle these difficult issues. We just went through the motions of electing vice-chairmen for committees. In talking to Liberal members afterward they would say: ``I am sorry. I hated to do it but I had to vote for the Bloc Quebecois as chairman. Why? Because the whip told me to''.
My mother used to say: ``If they told you to run and jump off a cliff would you do it?'' I sometimes wonder if we would have a lemming stampede on that side of the House if the whip ever said the wrong words. They would all go charging off into the Ottawa River or would drown in the canal. We are facing the attitude all the time where they do not want to deal with the difficult issues.
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Year after year, this being the third year running, we are faced with a separatist vice-chairman on the Canadian citizenship
committee. The vice-chairman of the Canadian heritage committee will be a separatist. That makes sense. It does not make sense when we get out of this town. I hope the members opposite realize when they talk to their constituents back home that this kind of stuff is not selling people. They should be dealing with these issues rather than sweeping them under the carpet.
When the Prime Minister was in Vancouver he said: ``The Bloc makes my blood boil. I would like to see it out of there. I would like to see the Reform leader sitting in the official opposition seat''. What does he say when he is in Ottawa or, worse yet, when he goes back home to where he was elected? He says: ``You know, I did not really mean it. I am just musing and I do not want to talk about it''. In one end of the country he says one thing and in the other end of the country he says another. It has been in the papers and people in B.C. have heard it time and again. They are sick of it.
The Liberals will not deal with the issue. I should give them my annual truth is stranger than fiction award. It could be a daily award in this place because the people on the government side will not deal with any of the substantive issues that should be dealt with both on procedure and on issues of national unity. Their idea of a national unity campaign is a concerted effort to give out flags. I like the Canadian flag, but to think that is their total national unity plan is enough to make me gag.
What about the seriousness of the charge we brought forward on the sedition issue? What kind of a military would Quebec people have access to on their own soil? There is no shortage of assets in Quebec. The Royal 22nd Regiment is based at Valcartier. There are two CF-18 squadrons which fly 37 planes. There are another 22 CF-18s mothballed in the Montreal area. About half of the most useful part of our air force is in Montreal. There are certainly makings of a very significant military force within Quebec.
Many of our naval units are manned by our very capable francophone crews. Four of the twelve new coastal defence ships being built by the navy will be stationed at Quebec City. There is a $100 million supply depot full of military hardware, the biggest in Canada, located in Quebec. There is certainly a significant military presence there. In other words, it is not an idle threat. The separatists could build an army if they could get the people and the assets of the Canadian Armed Forces quickly.
General MacKenzie said about this issue: ``Only in Canada could you get away with something like this. In some countries people would be executed or waiting in jail. In Canada the attitude is ignored and maybe it will go away. I am absolutely amazed that it died with a whimper rather than a bang. If I was commanding the army when that communiqué came out I would not do anything with it other than get a hard copy, get in a plane, parade myself into the minister's office and say this is well beyond the military's capability to deal with. This is a serious national issue''.
This is a serious issue which deserves serious national debate. Unfortunately it is typical of the government to want to sweep it aside and not talk about it because it might ruffle some feathers.
If the Liberal government does not let this charge go to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs it will prove that it is not standing in defence of the country. It will say to loyal Canadians working in the Canadian Armed Forces: ``We are satisfied to just hope this thing does not happen again. We will not set any rules to make sure it does not happen again. We will not instruct our military personnel on how to deal with this in the future. We will not tell the House of Commons how we will deal with members who choose to use the privileges of the House to put forward their own seditious ideas. We will continue to ignore it and hope it goes away''. It is this same policy that brought us this close to losing the last referendum vote in Quebec.
We cannot ignore this thing and hope it goes away. It must be dealt with in whatever method the House decides is necessary and then move on.
I call on all members of the House to defeat the amendment put forward by the government and bring back the amendment brought forward by my hon. colleague from Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt.
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The communiqué we are discussing today is a challenge to the heart of the country. It is a challenge to this position in Parliament and it is a challenge to every member here to do the right thing and vote in favour of the original motion and defeat the amendment.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères, BQ): You know, Madam Speaker, I do not think I will ever get used to the incredibly large number of senseless and implausible comments uttered by Reform members every day. But I will admit that, in the last three days, they have really outdone themselves.
They hijacked a procedure outlined in the Standing Orders of the House of Commons to make a mockery of Parliament. This is unfortunate, since the serious accusations against my colleague from Charlesbourg called for a more serious debate on this. But, for the last three days, our friends in the Reform Party have turned this into a circus. They are using this excuse to put the hon. member for Charlesbourg, the former leader of the Bloc Quebecois, and the Bloc Quebecois itself on trial, going as far as questioning the legitimacy of our presence in this House. I would remind my colleagues from the Reform Party that we were duly elected by the voters in each of our ridings.
As I was saying, they hijacked a procedure of the House that has been used only three times so far. It was used once against Louis Riel and this, I think, speaks volumes. Louis Riel was suspended from this House; his right to sit in this House was suspended. Years later, under the last Conservative government, Louis Riel was recognized as one of Canada's founders. This shows a lack of consistency on the part of this House. Louis Riel, as you may recall, was charged with treason and hanged.
However, in the case of my colleague from Charlesbourg, two criminal complaints against him have been dismissed. They were thrown out by the courts. Yesterday, the leader of the Reform Party himself came right out and said that there were no legal grounds for charging my colleague from Charlesbourg with sedition.
Of what are they accusing him, if he is not guilty of sedition? As my colleague from Laurier-Sainte-Marie pointed out, are they simply accusing him for his views on certain things? Is having conflicting views a new offence in Canada? Has it become illegal to voice opinions that differ from those of the government majority or, hopefully, from those of our hon. friends seated to our left, whose ideas are nonetheless way off to the right?
We have heard our friends form the Reform Party complain. For three days now, we have heard them whine because they are not the official opposition and because their members were not elected as vice-chairpersons of committees. They have been whining for three days. But if they want to take over as the official opposition, all they have to do is to defeat Bloc Quebecois candidates and Liberal candidates in the six byelections scheduled for March 25. They should come to Quebec and talk about sedition to Quebecers. They should come to Quebec and talk about partitioning. They should come to Quebec and talk about becoming the official opposition instead of trying to hide their game under the cover of an economic debate. They should come to Quebec and talk to us about all that; then we will see whether they can gain official opposition status.
There are major issues being discussed in this Parliament, or at least that should be discussed in this Parliament, issues like the UI reform, for instance. There are people who need us to look at and discuss this reform in this House. Instead, the Reformers have led the House to neglect its proper business with this absolutely ridiculous motion.
We should be debating the budget. They claim to be very concerned about financial matters. Yet, they do not want to talk about the budget; they would rather talk about sedition, although their leader actually admitted, as I said earlier, that there was no legal basis for charges of sedition.
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It is rather strange that they should choose this time, some four months after the facts and precisely during the debate on unemployment insurance reform and the debate on the budget, to bring
up the question of the so-called sedition of my colleague for Charlesbourg. What is unfortunate in all of this, is to find that our Liberal colleagues are going along with this disgraceful manoeuvre on the part of Reform members.
The government whip told us: ``When something is poorly done, you replace it, you start all over again''. Thus, he recognizes that there was some basis to the motion; when something is poorly done you start all over again, of course, but when something is ridiculous, you simply ignore it. Yet, the government chose not to ignore it. It associated with the Reform members and is therefore guilty by association.
Let us look at the communiqué from my colleague for Charlesbourg. He never called on military personnel to desert. He never called for rebellion or revolt. He simply stated that, should Quebec become sovereign, Quebecers presently serving in the Canadian armed forces would be offered the opportunity to join the Quebec armed forces. Is that a call to sedition, to rebellion or to desertion? Not at all, not in any way.
In his communiqué, my colleague for Charlesbourg was talking about Quebec participating in peace missions, participating in NATO, recognizing therefore that Quebec would abide by its international commitments. He was talking about respect for democracy, respect for civil and human rights. Is that unacceptable? No. This is a very responsible behaviour on the part of the hon. member for Charlesbourg.
Mr. Speaker, you are motioning to me that my time is up-
The Speaker: Not at all, my dear colleague. You have 12 minutes left. It being 2.00 p.m., however, we shall proceed to statements by members, and you will be the first speaker after question period.