That, in relation to Bill C-33, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act, not more than one further sitting day shall be allotted to the consideration of the second reading stage of the bill and, fifteen minutes before the expiry of the time provided for government business on the allotted day of the second reading consideration of the said bill, any proceedings before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the purpose of this Order, and in turn every question necessary for the disposal of the second reading stage shall be put forthwith and successively without further debate or amendment.(1525 )
[English]
The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Speaker: Call in the members.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)
Nault
O'Brien (London-Middlesex)
O'Reilly
Paradis
Parrish
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peterson
Pettigrew
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Reed
Regan
Richardson
Rideout
Ringuette-Maltais
Robichaud
Robillard
Rock
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Serré
Shepherd
Sheridan
Simmons
Speller
St. Denis
Steckle
Stewart (Brant)
Stewart (Northumberland)
Szabo
Telegdi
Terrana
Thalheimer
Torsney
Ur
Valeri
Vanclief
Verran
Volpe
Walker
Wells
Whelan
Wood
Young
Zed-146
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The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
The Deputy Speaker: Colleagues, there are four minutes remaining for questions or comments on the intervention of the hon. member for Fraser Valley East.
Mr. Ian McClelland (Edmonton Southwest, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I know it has been some time for Canadians who are watching this on television. This debate is on Bill C-33, which is a government order to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act by inserting the two words, sexual orientation.
Since we are in the period for questions and comments, I will ask my honoured and learned colleague from Fraser Valley East if he would tell the television viewers across the country what the implications of the insertion of those two words in the Canadian Human Rights Act might be for them.
Mr. Strahl: Mr. Speaker, I have four minutes or maybe less now. Parliamentarians have an hour left to speak on this. Again it is a travesty that the Liberals have brought in closure to restrict open debate.
Last night I asked for unanimous consent to split my time with the member for Ontario who is not being allowed to speak by the Liberal Party. That permission was denied by the members of the Liberal Party, which is a shame. They talk about freedom to speak one's mind and their own members are not allowed. One of their members was not even allowed to split my time with me.
Ms. Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The member has made a statement which is not accurate and reflects badly on other members of the House. Anybody who wants to speak is allowed to speak-
The Deputy Speaker: That is a matter for debate, not a point of order. The time will not come out of the time of the hon. member for Fraser Valley East.
Mr. Strahl: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the person who was just on her feet denied unanimous consent when I tried to obtain it yesterday.
It is a shame-
The Deputy Speaker: There is a second point of order which will not come out of any member's time. The hon. parliamentary secretary on a point of order. I hope it is not the same point of order.
Mr. Arseneault: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The member is making accusations which are not correct. he has also made an accusation which to me has taken the Chair in question. He is attributing that we are deciding who speaks in this House.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. parliamentary secretary will know that his party will have the floor for the next speaker after the present speaker finishes in two minutes. Then the parliamentary secretary will be permitted to get up and explain what he has just said as part of debate.
The hon. member for Fraser Valley East has about three minutes left.
Mr. Strahl: Mr. Speaker, I guess I am down to two minutes now. I am not sure if they are going to jump up again.
If they would care to look in yesterday's Hansard, I stood in this spot and said that I would like unanimous consent to split my time with the member for Ontario. That unanimous consent was denied by members of the Liberal Party.
I want to make it clear that it is disgusting that the Liberals will not allow people in their own party to speak. It is disgusting that they have invoked closure. If I had another 40 minutes, I could get wound up again on the whole issue we are debating here.
However, the issue I am raising now is that I made an offer to the member for Ontario. I had talked it over with him previously and said that I would do that. Consent was denied. He has been denied the privilege to speak by his own party. That is truly disgusting. Now the rest of the members will not be allowed to speak because closure is in place.
I have gone through the issue and my remarks are in Hansard for everyone to see. Closure is being invoked for the umpteenth time, which is far worse than what the Mulroney Tories ever did.
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I would just like to point out that the Liberals are denying free speech in their own House of Commons and I think that is truly disgusting.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I too would like to say how ashamed and upset I am that people in this House-
Ms. Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I believe the next speaker in the normal order is in fact a Liberal member. I believe it is the secretary of state for-
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member was sitting there an instant ago and watched me look at her whole bench and nobody moved a muscle. The only person who was standing was the hon. member for Calgary North. The hon. member for Calgary North has the floor.
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, this is an issue of real concern to Canadians. The phone is ringing off the hook in my office. I have scores of letters from my constituents about this legislation yet debate is being stifled in this House by the government. The most undemocratic thing that has ever happened in this Parliament is to have debate on contentious issues simply cut off at the knees because the Liberals want to ram it through. Shame. I speak with the outrage of many Canadians across the country.
Unfortunately this debate has been surrounded by a high degree of politicization and emotion. I want to touch on the perception that was conveyed by the reported remarks of my colleague from Nanaimo-Cowichan. Those remarks were most unfortunate and were completely inconsistent with Reform policy.
Once again, I want to put on the record that the Reform Party will take a back seat to no one in opposing unfairness and discrimination. We believe strongly in the principle of equality, that all Canadians are equal, entitled to equal protection under the law, equal freedoms, equal protection from discrimination and hate mongering. Even where we may disagree with the lifestyles or viewpoints of others, the innate value, dignity and worth of each individual is to be respected and affirmed.
This legislation must be looked at on the merits of whether it is serving the best interests of Canadians and whether it is in fact furthering the goal of equally protecting Canadians from unfairness and discrimination in our society because that is a goal we all believe in and to which we are all committed. There are four reasons that this legislation should not proceed at this time.
The first point is it negates the key principle of equality in a democracy. This is a very important principle which we need to be looking at and have not looked at properly in my view. We should not be looking at whether we should be adding one group or another to the federal human rights legislation. We should focus instead on the broader principle of equality and individual rights.
The principles of equality and individuals rights apply to individuals and are based on the position of each person as a human being, not on group membership. Recognizing different categories of people for the purpose of defining or augmenting their rights under the Canadian Human Rights Act is negating the principle of equality and polarizing Canadian society.
So far the Canadian Human Rights Act lists 10 categories of Canadians deserving special protections. Special interest groups have used and are using these categorizations to demand preferential treatment, not equal treatment but preferential treatment. Often their claim is based on the rationale that special treatment is required to make up for past injustices or for certain inherent
disadvantages. This has led to a situation where Canadians are no longer equal. Groups not currently included in the list justifiably argue for inclusion.
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We see this in the United States where there is a real movement to include prohibitions against discrimination of people based on their height. I personally would applaud that. That is another expansion that logically this kind of approach leads to. There is a movement for the prevention of discrimination based on size or weight. There is a movement for the prevention of discrimination based on looks. If one is not attractive, according to that particular lobby, then one is discriminated against and not given the same opportunities as others. Where does it all end?
We need to look carefully at the kind of approach we are taking to this legislation before we rush it through. We should back up and take a long range look at it.
The Reform Party strongly believes that all Canadians are entitled to the same rights and privileges under the Canadian Human Rights Act. However, the protections awarded by this act do not ensure equality but rather tend to have the opposite result in some cases. It sets Canadians against each other in a quest for economic benefits which benefit one group at the cost of another.
All of us have friends and family members who want to pursue different professions or different opportunities in the federal public service but are told: ``No point in applying. You do not have the special group characteristics that are required at the current time''. Extending the special protections of the Canadian Human Rights Act to a constantly growing list of groups will lead to increasing infringement of the existing privileges and rights of other Canadians.
Under the current wording of the Canadian Human Rights Act, inequalities clearly do exist. Therefore, the only logically consistent and defensible way to oppose extending these special rights to groups not currently included is by proposing to eliminate those inequalities while strongly affirming a belief in the equality and rights of individuals.
The debate we really ought to be having is to back up, take a clear look at the big picture and the principles we are attempting to protect. Before we go too far down the road of adding more and more specially designated groups, we should first consider replacing all prohibited grounds of discrimination. We should also replace the special categories currently listed in the Canadian Human Rights Act with a clearly worded straight definition of fundamental human rights that applies to each and every Canadian without discrimination and without any inequality at all. We have not looked at this approach. It is one I believe must be considered and properly debated before we move to add more and more groups to the human rights legislation.
The second reason this legislation should not be passed at this time is that Canadians are very unsure, and I believe rightly so, about the effects and the consequences of passing this legislation. The government put out a little book about what would be the effect of passing this legislation. It says that it would not extend economic benefits to different groups and a number of other things which it is alleged this legislation would not do. Unfortunately I do not think it is any surprise to Canadians that once legislation is in place, its interpretation or application very much depends on decisions of the courts.
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Canadians are rightly asking: Will this legislation change our application of economic benefits? Will this legislation change our definition of family and the basic building blocks for our society? Will this legislation prohibit people who disagree with certain viewpoints from voicing that disagreement, or if they choose to speak their own opinion, will that be considered discrimination? Will they be muzzled and their freedom of speech abrogated? These are very real logical questions and they should be answered.
What does the Liberal government do when these very serious questions are put forward by the Canadian people? It cuts off debate, in effect saying: ``We do not want to talk about this. We are not going to answer your questions. It is going to go through and let the chips fall where they may''.
Canadians are increasingly losing confidence in their lawmakers and no wonder. They are often told one thing and the consequences are something quite different. Canadians have a real lack of trust and confidence in their lawmakers.
We have a duty as lawmakers to address that by being open and transparent and taking all the time necessary to answer the very real concerns, fears and objections of the people who are going to have to live with this legislation. We must do that. It is our responsibility. We represent these people. Pushing something through because a few people in their wisdom have decided this is the way the country should be going is not the way a democracy should be working. Shame on us.
Shame on us for not taking the time to respond to the concerns that I am hearing in my constituency office. I am willing to wager that every single member of Parliament is hearing those same concerns. That is not the way to bring in good legislation.
The third reason we should hesitate in pushing ahead with this legislation particularly in such a high-handed manner is that it does not enjoy the support of the majority of Canadians. I have already mentioned that Canadians are concerned about the real effects and
consequences of this kind of bill. In addition to that, simply put, it does not enjoy the support of the broad base of the Canadian public.
Surely if we have to live with laws, they should at least meet with our approval. If we think that people would approve if they knew all the ins and outs, then it is up to us to place that information in front of the public, to inform them to the point where public opinion would broadly support this kind of a measure. If we truly believe this is right for our society, that it is something which is necessary, proper, fair and just, then it would be no trouble at all. There would be no problem in getting Canadians behind it.
But what does this Liberal government do? It introduces the legislation, it introduces closure, it shoves the debate through and just pushes it upon Canadians without any consideration for their hesitation, their concerns and their lack of support. That is wrong. It should not be done that way. I protest in the strongest possible terms on behalf of the people of Canada at the way this legislation that is going to affect us and the way we perceive society is being dealt with and that there are special protections for yet another group.
I did a survey in my riding of Calgary North in anticipation that this issue would come forward. I listed arguments that were most often brought forward in favour of the inclusion of sexual orientation in the Canadian Human Rights Act and the arguments that were most often brought forward against it. I received over 1,000 responses. Not one response criticized the objectiveness or completeness of the background information that I provided to my constituents.
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As an elected representative I need to give people objective information. They need to know both sides of any question. They need to know the pros and the cons, which there always are in whatever proposal comes forward. They need time to look at the information, to consider it and discuss it in order to make an informed decision.
Of the 1,035 responses I received to the question: Do you think the federal government should amend federal legislation to add sexual orientation as a prohibited grounds of discrimination, 67.9 per cent said no; 26.3 per cent said yes; 4.4 per cent were undecided; and 1.4 per cent had no response.
I then asked a second question: If yes, would you support this amendment if it meant extending economic and family benefits that heterosexual couples currently enjoy such as medical, survivor, income tax benefits, marriage and adoption to homosexual couples? Of the 272 people who answered yes to question number one, that sexual orientation should be included, 64.3 per cent of those 272 people agreed that economic and family benefits should also be extended to same sex couples, 28 per cent disagreed, 7.7 per cent were undecided and no one omitted a response.
That is the result from one poll in one urban riding. It has a very wide and broad range of people and backgrounds. It is incumbent upon us, it seems to me, to take more time to canvass the public when putting into place legislation that is going to affect our society for many years to come. It would have results we cannot clearly foresee pending court interpretation of the legislation.
As this legislation deserves a more sober, broad based and public dimension and consultation, I would move an amendment to the bill before the House at this time. I move that we:
Delete all the words after ``That'' in the main question and substitute the following:
Bill C-33, an act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act be not now read a second time, but that it be read a second time six months hence.The Deputy Speaker: The motion is acceptable.
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Mr. Peter Milliken (Kingston and the Islands, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member said in her remarks that the Reform Party was all in favour of equal rights for all Canadians. Yet it appears that her intention is to get rid of part of the Canadian Human Rights Act and take away rights that have been granted.
It is my view, and I think the view of most Canadians, that the provisions of the act which prohibit discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, marital status, family status, disability and conviction for which a pardon has been granted, have been widely accepted as advancing the interests and the opportunities for the persons named on that list, which is, of course. the vast majority of the Canadian population, since sex after all is one of the prohibited grounds.
I understand that most women's groups feel their interests have been advanced by the legislation. I am also of the view that most persons who come from various ethnic backgrounds or persons of colour feel that their interests have been advanced by this legislation and so have persons with disabilities in particular. I mention those groups because they are strongly in support of this legislation.
If the hon. member thinks that there should be equality for all, why does she oppose the inclusion of persons who are being discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation? They have provided ample evidence of this discrimination over the years. They have sought this amendment for many years and now Reform Party members seek to exclude them from this list because in their view they are unworthy of inclusion.
Why does the hon. member not come clean and admit that is the real reason behind her remarks? It is not because she does not think this act has done a good job. She is not advocating repeal of this act and she knows it. I invite her to answer that comment. Is she not trying to simply whitewash the Reform Party position by saying everyone should be equal.
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the intervention of the member for Kingston and the Islands because he is on record as supporting the first remarks in my intervention in this debate that the use of closure in this House is morally wicked. I appreciate the fact that he feels so strongly on behalf of the right of members to fully and fairly debate issues. Unfortunately the comments he made in that regard were in the last Parliament. He seems suddenly to have changed his stance in this one.
We need to look at what we are trying to accomplish in this legislation. The member talks about advancing opportunities but is that what we are trying to do in this legislation? I would submit that this legislation is trying to eliminate unfairness and discrimination against Canadian citizens.
If we are doing that, it is is something that each and every Canadian citizen is entitled to. We are all individually and equally entitled to protection against discrimination and unfairness.
What happens? We have a Canadian Human Rights Act. The member is quite correct. I certainly would never support abrogating that act. It enshrines very important principles of fairness, equality and anti-discrimination in our society. Instead of a straightforward definition of fundamental, individual human rights, it puts in categories. It says these people are entitled to special protection against discrimination, not all of us equally, but these groups.
The member even mentioned a category that is not in the legislation: the disabled. The point he is making is quite correct. Many people in our society for many reasons suffer unfairness and discrimination. That should be stamped out. They should be protected against that but on the basis that they have fundamental individual rights and individual liberties and not because they are a member of a group. No one would be excluded at all if there were no categories because we would all be equally entitled to equal protection, equal fairness and equal protection from discrimination. I submit that is exactly what our legislation should be doing.
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Mr. Gordon Kirkby (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask the hon. Reform member this question. Would the addition of the proposed term to the legislation, namely, the prevention of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, not cover all Canadians, regardless of their sexual orientation?
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly hope so. If it does, why do we need to put it in? If we are all equally covered, then we are all equally covered. We do not need to list some defining characteristic of the people who are covered. If we are all covered, why are we defining who is covered and who is not?
What the hon. member just said is that he agrees with the logic of my argument and I appreciate that very much.
Mr. Kirkby: Mr. Speaker, with respect, I believe the hon. member from the Reform Party has completely missed the point, but that ought not to surprise any of us.
I will make it clear for her. At present an individual who is a heterosexual could be discriminated against and could be fired for that reason. This legislation will prevent that from happening. Is that not a good thing?
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, if the member is suggesting that I am mentally challenged, then perhaps he ought not to discriminate against me by asking vague questions and then be unhappy because I do not answer properly or to his satisfaction.
Again, the point that I am making is that any person in our country who is discriminated against, who is treated unfairly for any reason, whose fundamental, individual human rights are being contravened, should be protected. That should not be allowed in our society and that person should have a recourse to have that discrimination reversed and addressed.
For whatever reason the hon. member wishes to raise it, I would agree that if there is discrimination and unfairness taking place, it should not be allowed. There is no need to say that these people are going to be protected and these people are going to be protected and if a person is in this group they will be protected, but then be silent about the rest. That abrogates the fundamental democratic principle of equality and is not the right way to go about protecting human rights.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have a brief comment on what my colleague from Calgary had to say.
Yesterday in the mail I received a little booklet that describes why the government is adding sexual orientation to the Canadian Human Rights Act. I find it very interesting that it has already put this out as a fait accompli. The government has limited debate in the House.
What is being done here today is a sham. It is not going to change the mind of the government. The government has already decided what it is going to do. It has printed the information as if it is an accomplished fact already that the amendment to the Canadian Human Rights Act will be passed.
This is a travesty of democracy and debate. There is absolutely no point to what we are doing in the House. It becomes abundantly obvious when the government invokes closure on the motion that it has already set its course. The Liberals will not listen to the Canadian people. They will not listen to the debate in the House. That is unconscionable. It is a travesty of democracy and the way things should work.
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If the people of Canada were demanding this we would have a very different view of this entire thing. However, what we have here today is top down, ``we are telling you the way it is''; it is being published it in advance, before the bill is even put through the House.
Liberals refer to their speaking notes all the time. Are those speaking notes binding on this legislation? I do not think they are any more binding than the promises they made on NAFTA, the GST and all of these other things. They do not mean a thing and they will not be binding on this bill.
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, I accept the comments of my hon. colleague and thank him.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: The five hours for debate were up one minute ago, so we shall now move on to the period when each member is given 10 minutes on debate.
It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake-the goods and services tax.
[English]
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am dividing my time with the member for Ottawa West.
I rise with pleasure and pride to speak to Bill C-33, an act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act to add sexual orientation as a prohibited grounds of discrimination. I congratulate the Minister of Justice and the Prime Minister for bringing this amendment forward at this time, because there has never been any doubt about the government's commitment to this principle.
This amendment is about the principles of justice and equality which have always been the bedrock of the Liberal Party's belief. They have always been the bedrock of Canadian values that we hold dear, values of tolerance, respect and social responsibility.
Today more than ever we need to emphasize and set strategies to promote equality. Today more than ever we need to name in legislation what we mean by equality and how we intend to implement that equality.
Today we see attempts by some groups to erode fundamental Canadian values, groups like the Reform Party which speaks of equality and yet its members espouse discrimination. They speak about representing the grassroots of Canadians yet seek to divide Canadians into different classes of citizens, those who would be relegated to the back of the bus or the back of the shop, those who would eat in different establishments eventually or go to different schools. I thought that ended with apartheid.
The third party, which will undoubtedly vote against this bill, as it has been saying, will have proven yet again that apologies or not, its record is clear. It has voted against every equality seeking piece of legislation the government has put forward.
Let me speak about the ugliness of discrimination. I know because I am a member of a visible minority. I was a family physician who listened daily to the pain, the anguish, the shame and the loss of self-esteem that each patient of mine who was a target of discrimination told me about, whether it was because of their religion, colour or sexual orientation. These people lived with that loss of self-esteem, with their mental health, with their ability to walk proudly down the street, damaged and harmed with the pain of discrimination.
Discrimination kills the soul. The idea of optional discrimination is the antithesis to the fundamental values we hold dear. It is the antithesis to the whole idea of equality. In a fantasy world, which one day I hope to live in, where we are all equal under the law, where it has been established that we no longer need to seek equality, then the hon. member across may have something to say.
It is interesting to look at what history has taught us. It is interesting to see how at every point in history and at every stage where the fight for equality and freedom has been fought arguments have always been made by majority groups against the equality and the freedoms of the groups seeking equality.
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Arguments have been made giving quasi-logical and legal reasons for denying those freedoms. There were arguments for slavery based on the fact that blacks were mentally inferior. All the excuses were made on the mass genocide of Jews. People were told there were economic arguments for ensuring the Jews were put down.
The equality of women was denied consistently for centuries based on the fact they were merely chattel and lacked the intellectual ability to take an equal place in society.
I would not be standing here today in the House of Commons if these kinds of legislation were not put into place to ensure I had the same fundamental and basic equality as the other people sitting in the House of Commons.
I have listened to the arguments made by the third party to deny this amendment. The arguments go on about groups and that equality means we should all be treated equally. Equality can be achieved only by removing barriers.
I am disabled and I cannot achieve equality if I cannot get into the building to participate without a wheelchair ramp. That is a special measure taken to ensure the equality of disabled people.
Today we know, and it has been well documented, that gays and lesbians in this country are denied the right to employment based on sexual orientation.
As a physician I have seen on a Friday or Saturday night gays and lesbians who were beaten purely because of their sexual orientation, taken bloodied into an emergency room.
The fundamental amendment we are discussing seeks to give equality of access to employment and housing. I know what it is like to be denied housing. When I was a medical student in England I sought an apartment. Because I came from a Commonwealth country I sounded quite British on the telephone. When I went to the door, about one minute later because I telephoned from around the corner, the woman took one look at me and said: ``I am sorry, it's gone''.
People have to know what it is like to feel that way, to suddenly feel inferior, subhuman, dirty and disgusting. That is what we mean when we talk about the reality of the lives of people who are discriminated against.
I do not hear the third party talking about equality in terms of ``then let us not let gays and lesbians pay taxes. Why should they be equal and pay taxes?'' We know this group belongs to one of the highest income groups in the country and pays an extraordinary amount of taxes.
We talk about equality and I do not think members of the third party understand the reality of people's lives because they come from a privileged majority. We sit here and listen to them espousing very warm, fuzzy and logical arguments, sot to speak, based on airy-fairy ideas. They do not understand. They seek to represent true Canadians and I do not think they even understand the reality of the lives of ordinary Canadians.
The statements repeatedly made in the House by the members of the third party tell me they represent only a particular group in the country. They do not know what it is like to be a person of colour. If they did they would never talk about some of the things they do. They do not know what it feels like to be disabled. If they did, they would talk about special measures to be taken to ensure that disabled people are able to take their places in the workforce. They would support the kinds of changes which would give people the ability to seek equality opportunity from a level playing field. That is what the amendment is about.
The amendment speaks to the fact that 71 per cent of Canadians have supported the bill in poll after poll and survey after survey. Canadians are fundamentally and basically people who espouse freedom, justice, equality and who talk about respect, not just tolerance. Tolerance means to put up with people. Respect means we know that person belongs and that they have something to share, something which will enrich the lives of Canadians. This country is based on respect. We are the role model to the world.
The third party talks about discrimination. Name any country that within the last part of this century has understood discrimination better than South Africa? Yet as soon as it got rid of apartheid and formed its first democratic government, one of the first things it did was put into its constitution lists of all those people who had been held back and who have a long way to go to achieve equality. In that list the South African Parliament put sexual orientation.
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There was not a debate. The reason there was not a debate was that people who have been downtrodden, people who have been seeking equality understand the reality and do not seek to keep anyone from that basic fundamental freedom we talk about when we speak of equality in this country.
Equality and justice are based on the fact that the greatest of us in society will always seek to lend a hand to raise the smallest and the least of us. This is what we are talking about. This is what this party stands for. This is what this government stands for. This is what the third party opposite does not even begin to understand.
I am proud to stand here and I am proud to support this bill. Every Canadian looking on today, the 71 per cent of Canadians who continue to believe in the things that hold us together, the common values that hold us together as Canadians, will be applauding in their homes today when they see us speaking to this bill because they believe in it.
It is no coincidence that we have been seen as a role model to the world. It is no coincidence that when Boutros Boutros-Ghali met the Prime Minister at the 50th anniversary of the United Nations he said: ``Your country is the greatest country in the world because you have learned how as a diverse people to live together, respecting differences, sharing equally, seeking constantly to bring equality to the world. It is you who will lead us into the 21st century''. This piece of legislation is beginning to do exactly that.
The Deputy Speaker: The 20 minutes speeches ended at 45 minutes past the hour. We are now into 10 minute speeches rotation across the floor. The hon. secretary of state spoke for 10 minutes. Now it is the turn of the other side of the floor and then it will come back to the deputy whip for the Liberal Party.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Vegreville, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on Bill C-33 to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act.
This legislation will add the undefined term sexual orientation to the list of categories which offer special protection under the Canadian Human Rights Act. This contravenes the concept of equality, the idea that all people are equal and should be treated as equals under the law.
This bill sets aside one more category under the Canadian Human Rights Act to include people who will get special treatment under the law. This is a break away from equality. I believe the intentions of the government is presenting this legislation are good and are honourable, but the results of this legislation, should it pass, and we know it will because closure has been invoked and the government whip will make sure it passes, will be one more category enshrined in the Canadian Human Rights Act.
The argument used by some members opposite of how could anyone oppose adding protection based on sexual orientation under the Canadian Human Rights Act is not a valid argument. What should happen is that all categories set aside for special treatment should be eliminated. We should, pure and simple, view Canadians as equal, and under the law we should treat all people in this country as equal.
I cannot support a bill which breaks away from this important basic principle of equality.
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I would like to read the very first principle written in the Reform blue book. It is the most important principle that guides Reform policy.
It says: ``We affirm commitment to Canada as a balanced federation of equal provinces and citizens''. The most important principle of Reform is the principle of equality. I will support no legislation that goes against this principle. It is a basic principle that I think Canadians support without reservation. For that reason, I will vote against this bill.
I would like to comment on what my constituents say about this legislation. I did a survey about a year ago in anticipation of this legislation coming forward. The survey went out to all eligible voters in the constituency through a householder. I would like to read some results of this survey.
I will read the question so members know what was asked. It was a fair, unbiased question: Should sexual orientation, undefined, be included as a protected category under the Canadian Human Rights Act? That is quite a simple, straight forward question.
What response did I get from my constituents? The message was very clear. There is no doubt how my constituents feel on this issue. Eighty-nine per cent of respondents said they are against having sexual orientation, undefined, included as a protected category under the Canadian Human Rights Act. Only 6 per cent were in favour. The rest were undecided or did not respond to that question. Those results are pretty clear. They certainly guide my vote.
When going to constituents to determine their view on an issue, it is important to do the background work. This issue has been well debated in my constituency. The media have played their role on this issue. They reported what has gone on at public meetings. They reported what different people are saying on this issue. They have my point of view on it. They have the point of view of many others from the constituency who have an interest in this issue. The debate has taken place at public meetings. There has been media involvement. This has taken place over some time.
Finally, the formal mechanism, a key part of the process, which is a householder survey that went out to all constituents, indicated that 89 per cent are against having sexual orientation, undefined, included as a protected category under the Canadian Human Rights Act.
I also asked in the householder some other questions about related issues. These related issues, although the government argues otherwise, are pertinent. When this change passes-we know it will-it will lead to more changes down the road.
Many members in this House and people outside who support this legislation say that this is only a first step. I firmly believe that.
The other related questions that I asked in this survey were these. I will read them and give the results: Do you agree with the definition of the family as those individuals related by the ties of blood, marriage or adoption and that marriage is the union between a man and a woman as recognized by the state? The response to this question: 96.5 or 97 per cent were in favour, only 2 per cent were against and about 1 per cent were undecided.
I asked two other two related questions. One question was: Should spousal benefits for any program funded or administered by the federal government be extended to same sex couples? In response 94 per cent said no, only 4 per cent said yes and about 1 per cent were undecided. Those results are quite clear.
(1705)
I believe that not only do the results reflect the position and the beliefs of the people in my constituency but they reflect a much larger view. I have heard this certainly in Ontario, Atlantic Canada and across the prairies as I have gone around the country over the past couple of years.
The fourth question that I put to the people in my constituency was: Should a new category called households be established for the purposes of identifying dependent relationships that are not currently included in the definition of a family? In response 88 per cent said no, 7 per cent yes-
The Deputy Speaker: The member's time has expired.
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, to paraphrase a famous orator: ``Never in history has so much been said by so many about only two words''.
I want to begin by reading from the Canadian Human Rights Act. This act enshrines the fundamental principle of Canadian society:
Respect for the dignity and equality of all human beings and their right to live and to work free from discrimination.A great deal has been said to suggest that in fact this act treats Canadians unequally. Let me therefore read from the act:
For matters coming under the legislative authority of Parliament-every individual shall have an equal opportunity-to make for himself or herself the life that he or she is able and wishes to have, consistent with his or her duties and obligations as a member of society, without being hindered in or prevented from doing so by discriminatory practices.Every individual. Equal opportunity.
It then lists the characteristics on which discrimination most commonly occurs: race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, a conviction which has been pardoned. The amendment before Parliament today adds two words to that list, nothing more. The words are sexual orientation.
As far as I know every single Canadian has a sexual orientation. You are bisexual, you are heterosexual or you are homosexual. Everybody is covered by this act.
Inclusion of race in the Canadian Human Rights Act does not say that black people are protected but white people are not. Inclusion of religion does not say that I am protected as a Roman Catholic, but a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Protestant is not. We are all protected from discrimination based on our religious beliefs, whatever they may be.
Not one person who has written or spoken to me on this issue has said that it should be acceptable to discriminate against someone, to deny them employment or services just because they are gay or lesbian. Nobody says it is all right to discriminate and that is what this act is about. It is saying it is not all right, it is not acceptable, it is not legal in Canada to discriminate.
People have raised with me issues that they are afraid may be implicit in this act so let me deal with these concerns. They are concerned about pedophilia. The preamble specifies the right to be free from discrimination based on respect for the law and lawful conduct. Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation, it is a crime. It is prohibited by the Criminal Code and it will continue to be prohibited by the Criminal Code.
The Canadian Human Rights Act applies only to lawful conduct. Churches and schools are worried it will interfere with their right to preach religious values on matters of sexuality. Churches and schools are not under the jurisdiction of the federal government. The Canadian Human Rights Act applies only to those matters under the purview and the legislative authority of Parliament.
Even when this issue was dealt with by the Supreme Court of Canada under an Ontario human rights act which does include sexual orientation and has for a decade, the Supreme Court of Canada said that Catholic schools were completely free to ensure that those people they hired had religious beliefs which were consistent with the purpose of the school.
(1710 )
People are concerned that this amendment may affect the definition of marriage. Again I want to go back to the preamble of the bill, which says very clearly that the government recognizes and affirms the importance of family as the foundation of Canadian society and that nothing in the act alters its fundamental role in society. In any case, marriage is primarily a provincial matter. If having sexual orientation in the human rights act automatically implied recognition of same sex partnerships, the Ontario government would not have had to go through introducing a piece of legislation 10 years after it included sexual orientation in its human rights act. It would not have had to introduce legislation to establish same sex relationships on a legal basis.
Again I want to go back to the courts because people are also concerned about the extension of employment benefits to same sex partners. It was very clear in the case of Egan and Nesbitt v. The Queen. The unanimous decision of the court was that sexual orientation is a prohibited ground of discrimination under section 15 of the charter of rights and freedoms. Not the Canadian Human Rights Act, but the Canadian charter, which is constitutional law. Notwithstanding the court's finding, it did not support the extension of same sex benefits in that case.
The claim that this bill establishes special rights is simply not accurate. This covers all Canadians. It protects us all from discrimination, from whatever source.
We are bringing our Canadian Human Rights Act into conformity with the human rights acts of eight of the provinces and territories in Canada. We are bringing to 10 per cent of Canadians who work in federal jurisdiction the same rights which are enjoyed by the majority of the workforce employed in eight of our provinces and territories. Is it not about time we had equality of rights across the country?
There are complaints. People can argue that there is no discrimination, but there are many complaints from gays and lesbians. The vast majority are about something as basic as the ability to get and keep a job.
Discrimination hurts us all. Discrimination hurts our society. It leads to isolation from society, to alienation, to being forced into hiding who we are for fear of discovery, for fear of losing our jobs, our apartments, the right to go where we want to go, to do what we want and to buy what we want. It means being ostracised. That is not good for the individual and it is not good for society.
Legislation will not end discrimination. Our Criminal Code does not end murder, robbery, beatings or rape. However, it gives a legal recourse to people who are victims of those actions which we have determined are unacceptable in our society.
This subject is often argued on religious grounds. As a Christian I have very strong religious principles that also guide my personal behaviour. The strongest of the commandments that I obey is the one that says: ``Love one another as I have loved you''. A similar principle is in other religions and I respect them all; however, to me it is a simple matter of human dignity, of fairness, of respecting every other person on this earth and treating them fairly.
(1715)
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): Pursuant to order made earlier today, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill now before the House.
[English]
The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): Call in the members.
(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the following division:)
Langlois
Laurin
Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry)
Lavigne (Verdun-Saint-Paul)
LeBlanc (Cape/Cap-Breton Highlands-Canso)
Lefebvre
Leroux (Richmond-Wolfe)
Leroux (Shefford)
Lincoln
Loney
Loubier
MacAulay
MacDonald
MacLellan (Cape/Cap-Breton-The Sydneys)
Malhi
Maloney
Manley
Marleau
Massé
McCormick
McGuire
McKinnon
McLaughlin
McLellan (Edmonton Northwest/Nord-Ouest)
McWhinney
Ménard
Mercier
Milliken
Minna
Mitchell
Murphy
Murray
Nault
Nunez
O'Brien (London-Middlesex)
O'Reilly
Paradis
Paré
Parrish
Patry
Payne
Peric
Peterson
Pettigrew
Picard (Drummond)
Pickard (Essex-Kent)
Pillitteri
Plamondon
Pomerleau
Reed
Regan
Rideout
Riis
Ringuette-Maltais
Robichaud
Robillard
Robinson
Rocheleau
Rock
Sauvageau
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Sheridan
Simmons
Solomon
Speller
St. Denis
Steckle
Stewart (Brant)
Stewart (Northumberland)
Szabo
Taylor
Telegdi
Terrana
Thalheimer
Torsney
Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean)
Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata)
Ur
Valeri
Vanclief
Verran
Walker
Wappel
Wells
Whelan
Wood
Young
Zed-198
(1740 )
The Speaker: I declare the amendment defeated.
The next question is on the main motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)
Rock
Sauvageau
Scott (Fredericton-York-Sunbury)
Sheridan
Simmons
Solomon
St. Denis
Stewart (Brant)
Stewart (Northumberland)
Taylor
Telegdi
Terrana
Thalheimer
Torsney
Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean)
Tremblay (Rimouski-Témiscouata)
Valeri
Vanclief
Walker
Wells
Whelan
Wood
Young
Zed-178
(1750 )
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried. Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Human Rights and the Status of Persons With Disabilities.
(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee.)
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): It being 5.55 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed in today's Order Paper.