(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed.)
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed.)
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed.)
Mr. Anderson: Mr. Speaker, with your permission I wish to inform the House that in accordance with Standing Order 73(1), it is the intention of the government that this bill be referred to committee before second reading.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I wonder if I might ask the assistance of the hon. minister. I neglected to recognize him on the first bill I presented in his name. Was his last remark applicable to the first bill, the second one or both?
Mr. Anderson: Mr. Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to request the permission of the House to have both bills referred to committee prior to second reading in this House.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I apologize to the minister and my colleagues for not recognizing the minister in the first instance.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed.)
That at the conclusion of the debate on Bill C-201 later this day, a recorded division be deemed to have been put; and the said division be deferred until Tuesday, September 24, 1996 at the conclusion of Government Orders.
(Motion agreed to.)
That notwithstanding any order of the House, debate on the motion to concur in the report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs on the composition of committees, tabled earlier this day, be held and be concluded no later than 1.50 p.m. today; and at the conclusion of the said debate, the motion be deemed to have been put and carried on division; and that the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs and the Standing Committee on Finance be permitted to hold their organization meetings later this day.(Motion agreed to.)
(1010 )
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): The motion put before the House by the chief government whip, as I stated, carried and we will now continue with motions.
Mr. Williams: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. The motion that was placed before the House and was agreed to calls for debate on the motion. When will the debate commence?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Just as soon as the government tables the motion we will move to debate. The motion presented by the chief government whip was the agreement to debate the motion once it is tabled, within certain parameters I believe, until 1.50 p.m. this afternoon.
I will look to the government side and see if we can move back to motions.
Mr. Paul Zed (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I move that the 25th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, presented to the House this day, be concurred in.
Mr. Don Boudria (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to debate the concurrence motion so ably put to the House by the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader.
As we commence the debate we are setting in place the committees for this fall and for next spring, committees which could in fact be in place from now until the next election. Of course, next fall if we are still in session and still in this Parliament, then the whips, through the mechanism of a striking committee, will table another report which would be subject to something similar to what we are experiencing today and new committees would be struck then.
[Translation]
Meanwhile, we are all here this morning to debate this report, which, as I pointed out earlier, will put in place these committees.
To start with today, I would like to talk about the amendments made to the whole committee system in the past few years and the new openness that now exists in this Parliament. In previous Parliaments, parliamentary committees did not have the same level of authority as today.
For example, committees now have the authority to draft legislation. These committees have done so. The bill on lobbyists, for example, was drafted by a parliamentary committee.
Mr. Bellehumeur: This is not a good example.
Mr. Boudria: I for one think it is a good example because we did a good job. I commend opposition members for their excellent work, notwithstanding the criticism aimed at them by my friend across the way. I think the members from both sides of the House who sat on this committee did a good job.
Having given you that example, I could add several others.
[English]
This morning one minister tabled two bills which will be sent to committee for study prior to second reading. The general principle of the bill, as opposed to merely the clauses, are up for review at a very different level, a far more intense level of criticism than those bills which are sent after second reading. That is an innovation of this Parliament and that is the kind of good work that can be done by parliamentary committees when bills are sent there prior to second reading under the new mechanism and, of course, pursuant to the promises that were made in the red book and which have been delivered, as were so many promises in the red book.
(1015)
The parliamentary committees have done tremendous work. Just yesterday we saw the finance committee table a report in the House on the whole issue of family trust.
[Translation]
A while ago, we saw a whole series of reports prepared by parliamentary committees and the good job they did.
I must tell you that, when I first arrived here as a member of Parliament back in 1984, committees were not doing much other than dealing with legislation and budgetary estimates. Today, under Standing Order 108(2), committees can practically turn into working groups and review all kinds of matters coming under the responsibility of the departments associated with the various committees.
Under Standing Order 108(2), the transport committee can review transportation issues either within or outside the estimates.
Mr. Lavigne (Beauharnois-Salaberry): The auditor general.
Mr. Boudria: The hon. member opposite talks about the auditor general. In fact, this power existed before the amendment I just mentioned. This is not a good example, because this power has existed for a long time. It existed before Standing Order 108(2). In fact, the power of the public accounts committee to review the auditor general's report is similar to the power now held by other committees; it did not exist before.
In that sense, I am glad the hon. member raised the issue. Committees have a much freer hand today than they did, say, 10 or 12 years ago when I first came to this hon. House.
Of course, much more headway has been made since this government took office and opened up all sorts of new ways to improve the efficiency of parliamentary committees.
[English]
We have, for instance, seen some of the work done by the foreign affairs and environment committees in dealing with issues ranging from pollution, circumpolar issues and so on. The foreign affairs committee is, as I understand it, studying the possibility right now of doing work in that regard. All of this would have been impossible under the rules as they existed only a few years ago.
We saw a joint committee early in this Parliament do a review of both the foreign affairs department and the defence policy put together. This was a joint effort of the foreign affairs committee and the defence committee. This was early in Parliament. They did an excellent report, widely quoted, and this work was done under the able chairmanship of the then member for Ottawa-Vanier, now a member of the other place, Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier. That kind of excellent work was done in this Parliament by the parliamentary committees.
The point I am making here is that the parliamentary committees have a role to play today which is far different than the one I knew when I came here. I only wished that as a new member I would have had the power to do all these things that new members today as they come here in Parliament are experiencing. The level of frustration that some of us had many years ago when we tried to do anything in committees was unbelievable.
I see my distinguished colleague from Edmonton who was a member in this House several years ago at the time when I believe estimates were probably done right on the floor of the House of Commons. There was little or no work done by committees. You could not even call witnesses before a parliamentary committee. You could barely hear testimony of any kind with regard to legislation.
Today we have committees sitting in Ottawa, bringing experts to give advice so that we can improve on the legislation of the government and study issues far and wide. All of these opportunities would have been virtually impossible before.
(1020 )
We have starting next week the standing committee on justice travelling to look at the Young Offenders Act. I am sure it will produce an excellent report.
I hear a member of the Reform Party being critical already but I am not that negative about the Reform member who will be sitting on that committee. I think he will probably do a good job. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the hon. member, notwithstanding the criticism which is already starting by some of his colleagues. That is okay.
We have faith in some of the Reform members. We say that the ones on that committee will hopefully do a good job. I hope they do. I am still hopeful. I hope those Reformers do not take personally the criticism of their own colleagues we have just heard. We are on their side. We will defend those Reformers sitting on the justice committee.
The parliamentary committees have done a very good job over recent years. In this Parliament we have seen them do excellent work. We have seen them produce legislation. We have seen them produce reports. We have seen them study various issues, make recommendations to Parliament and we have seen many of those recommendations turned into law.
During the 1993 election campaign our party had the red book. I know you are a non-partisan person, Mr. Speaker, but nevertheless I am sure you will recall those of us who are more partisan-
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Boudria: The members across who want to abolish the CBC did not get their way. I guess they are agitated this morning.
Notwithstanding that, here is what we said. We said we would give MPs a greater role in drafting legislation through House of Commons committees. That was done. Legislation was produced, everything from the redistribution bill that was produced by parliamentary committee to the committee that dealt with the lobbyist registration and so on.
We said we would permit parliamentary committees to review order in council appointments. Most people across the way have never even used that process. That process was used a lot more when we on this side of the House were in opposition. We were
scrutinizing those things a lot more diligently than some members of the opposition now.
We said at that time there would be more free votes allowed in the House of Commons. Free votes occur almost exclusively in the Liberal caucus. When was the last time we saw the Reform Party vote against one another? I know someone will bring to my attention the gun control issue where one member voted against the rest of them. Shall we say he had a different job not too many days later, a job with less whipping. Nevertheless we had some free votes. The consequences were a little different in the Reform Party.
We also said the parliamentary committee would do prebudget consultation. That has been probably the greatest success of all parliamentary committee initiatives. I congratulate all members of the finance committee on both sides of the House in all three political parties officially represented in Parliament. That consultation has occurred every fall. It has given Canadians a more precise picture of the country's finances and we have been able to track gradually how this country has been doing financially. That is something which is unprecedented.
We have the finance committee televised nationwide, being questioned by members on all sides of the House and being able to indicate to all Canadians the progress of Canada's economy. Whereas that process formally occurred once a year at budget time, we have developed an almost twice a year system. We now have the fall consultation process with the appearance of the minister and the others who also appear before the Finance Committee, and then the spring budget free period.
(1025)
Why did this happen? I believe it happened in large measure thanks to the diligence of members on all sides of the House. In order for that to happen the proper climate had to be there to start with. That process was permitted because this government wanted to change the rules and allow Parliament to do that. We did. It was in the red book. We made the commitment. We delivered on the promise. We made that kind of thing happen, or at least we created the climate to make it happen.
The reason I make the distinction is that notwithstanding the wishes of the government had members on all sides of the House done a shoddy job of the whole thing it would not have been very significant. The government made the commitment. The House put the structure in place. Members on all sides of the House acted properly and made it work. I congratulate all members. You did a good job and that process now has an incredible level of credibility.
[Translation]
You can certainly see the good work parliamentary committees are doing. The Standing Committee on Human Resources Development has also done a fine job with its comprehensive study of social programs in Canada.
I mentioned earlier that the Standing Committee on Finance took on prebudget studies. There is also the Standing Committee on Industry, with its ongoing review of the banking industry in Canada, its summer hearings and all it has done. Why is the industry anxious to know what the Standing Committee on Industry is going to do? Because this committee has gained credibility in this matter through its good work and because the rules we have now allow committees to do that kind of work. These rules did not exist when I was first elected to Parliament in 1984.
Mr. Lavigne (Verdun-Saint-Paul, Lib.): It has been many years.
Mr. Boudria: It has been many years indeed. In fact, to be more precise next Wednesday I will be celebrating 20 years in political life. The rules have changed over the years and they have changed for the best.
I will conclude on this to give as much time as possible to parliamentarians from other parties to speak. I am confident that, like me, they will express satisfaction with the way parliamentary committees operate and will want to commend the hon. members for their excellent work on these committees.
This was made possible by the excellent co-operation of the committees and by this government's agreeing to put the system in place and improve it as required and then listening to the advice given by parliamentarians. Through committee reports, we have collectively ensured better government for Canadians.
[English]
Mr. Harb: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I wonder if we could seek the unanimous consent of the House to take a few minutes so we could introduce petitions and then come back to the motion rather than waiting until the debate collapses. This way we would be able to get petitions finished and get back to the motion.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: No.
[Translation]
Mr. Laurin: Mr. Speaker, if we immediately move to the presentation of petitions, it will leave us less time to debate the committees' motion. Is this indeed the case? I would first like to know how many petitions there are. They could always be presented at three o'clock.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I appreciate the involvement of the chief opposition whip, but the House did not give its unanimous consent. We therefore resume with the questions and comments for the last speaker.
(1030 )
[English]
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I have a comment and a question for the member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell.
In the member's commentary he spoke for a long time and virtually said nothing of substance except to praise the status quo, which is not what we are here to do. We are here to bring about positive change. The member also made an implication as to my role when I was whip and about free votes. Let me explain to him very briefly what free votes are all about in the Reform Party.
A free vote means that we vote the party line, the platform and policies that we represent to the people, unless we have clear evidence from our constituents, even those who did not vote for us, to vote otherwise. The way we find that out is to do polling, talk shows, town halls, surveys through householders and scientific surveys. I did that on gun control. I live in an urban riding and there is a greater mix there. Therefore, I voted the wishes of my constituents which were with the government on that issue. My colleagues are proud of that. That is a free vote.
That is the way we would do a free vote if we were government, not the way the member claims a free vote should work, which is that on private members' bills we have free votes. That is a sham and that is not what free votes are about.
On sexual orientation, I did the same thing. I voted with the government because there was a clear indication from my constituents to vote with the government on that bill instead of with my party. My party did not kick me out of any position. I resigned the position of party whip voluntarily and freely.
For the member to use an argument of convenience is once again misleading the public which not only he is doing today but the finance minister and every minister across the way has done, except for the current human resources development minister. He is doing the best job of all.
I will now put my question to the hon. member. As the whip for the government, as a man who bragged about his 20 years of experience in the system, as a man who has honesty and integrity, as a man who I know will tell me the truth to this question, as a man who I know will not shirk from his responsibility to answer this question, does he, when these committees are set and struck, tell the members of his committees who are assigned to those committees how to vote and whom to vote for in terms of vice-chairs? Will he answer that question with conviction, honesty and courage on chairs and vice-chairs? On public accounts we cannot have a member of the opposition party as a chair. On that issue, would he give me the benefit of his 20 years of experience and be honest with me?
Mr. Boudria: Mr. Speaker, let us start with the issue of the wishes of constituents before I get to the second part. The hon. member just told us how he did the right thing by voting on gun control because it was the way his constituents wanted him to vote.
However, there is something wrong with the proposition here because his leader said that even though his constituents wanted him to vote for the bill that he was going to vote against it. What the hon. member just told us is that he did the right thing by not adhering to the party line. He has to at the same time recognize that he has told his leader that he has done the wrong thing because he did the opposite to what his constituents wanted. That is the proposition that has just been-
Mr. Silye: And I will be held accountable.
Mr. Boudria: He just told us now that his constituents will probably kick him out. That may be so but that is not the point. The point is that the hon. member has just said that a rule applies to him and he followed it and that the rule was the rule of the Reform Party. However, the leader did not follow the rule which he has just himself invoked as being the rule for the Reform Party. We have to admit that there is something inconsistent in that.
Let us get to the second part. The member has asked me how I do my job of whip in the Liberal Party. I hope I do it with honesty. I hope I serve my country, my party, the Prime Minister of this country and all of us in the House of Commons properly. I believe that is how all of us should behave in our jobs.
(1035 )
The hon. member was the whip of his party; the hon. gentleman performed this function for his party for some time and he did it very well. He will note that whether the issue was the timing of a vote or any other issue, he consulted with his colleagues and with his leader and then took a decision. After making that decision he would take action on whatever issue.
I do not know whether in his party it was he when he was whip or his leader, who selected the critic, which is roughly the equivalent on the opposition side of what the chair or the vice-chair is on the government side. I have no idea how this selection process occurs. Maybe they draw straws. Maybe the leader selects them. I do not know because it is an internal caucus matter on their side.
Mr. Strahl: Committees are supposed to be independent, Don.
Mr. Boudria: And the hon. member says that committees are supposed to be independent.
We just appointed the members to the committee. The member across is not going to tell me that he did not appoint them. His signature is on the report we tabled in this House a few minutes ago. Obviously determining the composition of committees is not
an independent process. Under the standing orders it is done by the whips of all political parties.
The member cannot say that he has no knowledge of the rules. He was, after all, the whip for some time, and I know the whip knew the rules.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Before I call for resumption of debate, just so we all understand the rules of debate on this motion, I will look to the Bloc Quebecois then the Reform Party for their participation.
The time allocations are all the same with 20 minutes and 10 minutes. Then we will revert to the normal rules of debate, going from one side of the House to the other.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, as always I enjoyed the speech of the government whip. He is always very entertaining. He always gives us a nice little political story to go with his speech, but he often does not answer the question. The question that was put to him today was point blank: Does he or somebody else in the leadership of the Liberal Party instruct the members on those committees how to vote on the committees as to who will be chair and vice-chair?
A committee is supposed to be independent of the House. In other words, it supposedly has an agenda of its own. It calls the witnesses and comes to conclusions independently of the House. It runs its own affairs, organizes itself and if it has to spend money, it will ask the House for permission.
What we are trying to get from the government whip is the answer to the question: Do committees really have that much independence or is the government whip or someone in their hierarchy actually holding them down under their thumb and telling them what to do?
As we head into the election of the chairs and vice-chairs it will be interesting to see what happens. The government whip would not answer that question because the truth is that members are told how to vote in committee. They are told who the chair will be and they are told to vote for the Bloc Quebecois members, the separatists, for the vice-chairmanship in every committee. They are told that, they are instructed to do that. If they break the rules, they pay the price.
That is the kind of discipline we are trying to break in this House of Commons. It is the kind of thing we say should be the prerogative of individual members. They have worked with one another for several years now.
I cannot say how much it boggles my mind to say that the vice-chairmanship of the Canadian heritage committee should be a separatist who wants to break up the country. On foreign affairs we want to have somebody who represents Canada and Canadian views, who portrays the Canadian perspective on international issues. So what do we do? We put a separatist, a person who wants to break the country in half, in the vice-chairmanship, the steering committee as it were of that committee.
That is a shame. It is a shame because it is instructed from the government side by the whip, the person who would not answer the question of our former whip. He knows the answer yet he tries to get around it. That is one of the things that is wrong with the committee system.
(1040)
Why are we debating this today? I can tell you why. We are debating what is wrong with the committee system.
I should have mentioned before I started that I was dividing my time.
There are two broad headings we are going to be discussing today from our perspective as to what is wrong with the committee structure. First, there is too little independence from the governing party. I already mentioned an example and I will talk a little more about that and what is wrong with the partisan process in the committee structure. The second part ironically is that committees are too independent from Parliament. They are too dependent on the party hierarchy and too independent from Parliament. I would like to expand on that a little bit in my time remaining.
To use an example, I was on the committee debating Bill C-64, the employment equity bill. When it came time for amendments, of course, I had many amendments to the bill from my perspective of what should be done to improve it. But the amendments given on the government side were not amendments from the committee people at all. The amendments were brought in by the cabinet minister, laid on the desks of committee members and people started making amendments. Unilingual English speaking members were making French amendments to the bill. In other words, they did not have the faintest or foggiest idea what they were amending. If we brought that to their attention, well of course they had no say in the legislation at all.
The bill went to committee, sure. We investigated it, sure. But the word came down from on high: ``These are the amendments that the cabinet minister wants. Do it, or else''. That is not independence and it is not what we had hoped for, which was some true independence from the governing party.
That partisan process, the fear that the members in these committees have of what might happen to them if they break party lines, is hindering the political process. It hinders the independence of the committee process. It hinders the ability of individual members to have an impact on the governing of our country.
At times it gets to the farcical stage, it gets really bad. For example last year the chairman of the defence committee would not allow our members to question the defence minister when he was before the committee. The reason? Well, he was our guest and we do not ask nasty questions of our guest. It is partisan, highly
partisan. The chairman was chosen beforehand and did not have the confidence of the committee and has not proven herself on that committee. Instead, she was using her absolute authority to tell people what they could or could not do.
If only the government would realize that if it cut the apron strings, the partisan strings to the committees, the committees would suddenly blossom on their own into useful, powerful and dynamic committees. They would have the independence required to get individual members of Parliament some influence into actual government business. Instead of being a voting machine, they would be a policy making machine. That is all that has to happen.
It is the same thing that was wrong with the parliamentary system 20, 30 or 40 years ago and in essence it has not changed. Whether a bill is referred on first reading, second reading or third reading, we all know the truth: The committees do as they are told. And that, regardless of how we try to change it is what the government insists on.
The second thing is about too much independence from Parliament. Committees are dependent on the party partisanship in order to make them function because of the way that party over there runs things. That is too bad and it should be broken in order to free up all backbench members who sit on these committees to have some real influence.
Parliamentary committees are too independent from the rules of Parliament. The rules are made in the House of Commons, our standing orders. They give order and civility to debate. That is why I address you in the Chair, Mr. Speaker, instead of calling somebody by name across the way.
The Latin phrase that guides this parliamentary system is lex rex. It means the law is king. In other words, the rule of law, the way we handle ourselves, the way we conduct debates, the questions you can ask and so on are decided by law or parliamentary procedure by order as to what can happen and in what order.
(1045)
The committee system is a law unto itself. When the government majority decides to do something it is king. In other words, the party is king. I do not know what the Latin for that is but the party is king. Instead of the rule of law being king, instead of having predictable standing orders for the committees, it does as it wishes when the going gets rough.
On May 17, 1995 the human rights committee was studying this same employment equity legislation. During this supposed investigation I made a point of privilege. Let me read my point of privilege, a little of what happened during this debate. I brought into the House of Commons the following observations.
First, I brought amendments to that committee in English and I was not allowed to table them because they were in English only. The chairman would not accept my amendments. They were all in proper order but they were in English and he would not accept them. This is totally out of order in a country that accepts both languages, and yet who cares? The chairman hammers the gavel and he is king. The orders came from on top. The chairman's ruling was challenged but it was supported entirely by the government whip and others who were there to make sure the chairman was the king. He had all the authority.
When we had some of the amendments come forward amendments were passed in that committee without a vote. The chairman said: ``I do not want to hear anymore about this''. Smack, amendments carried. We said: ``But we have not even tabled the amendment''. He said: ``It does not matter, it is carried''. That is the new openness, the new co-operation.
The committee moved then to time allocation. It said it would debate it all right, five minutes total time allocation per section. You could not even read the sections out in five minutes, but that is the freedom that we have in committees.
The problem remains and it is two-fold. The partisan system drives it from the top, it drives it from the party hierarchy in the Liberal Party and demands strict obedience to its rules. On the other hand it does not have a law except the law of the jungle. The people it appoints in those positions do the bidding of the hierarchy. It is wrong, it is an effective committee system and all backbenchers from all parties should be outraged at the way that works.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier-Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, several of the examples provided by the hon. member are true. We have to review the way committees operate, including the election process within committees, but the issue today is really that of the party line.
I believe the party line is indeed a foundation of the British parliamentary system, as can be seen when a general election is held. Candidates try to get elected on the basis of a platform, a party line. Why, once elected, should they no longer adhere to the party line? These people can run as independents if they wish. If they get elected, they will have their own line. It is up to them. Reformers claim to have ideas, a program, something to offer to Canadians. They would get elected based on that platform, but then they would do away with it? It does not make sense.
The real problem is that this new party has a great deal of difficulty adjusting to the way the House operates. Let me give you an example. Once, we spent an evening here voting on a series of amendments tabled by a Reform Party member, who voted against his own amendments. The House was unanimous; everyone voted
against the amendments that the member had proposed. This is quite something, but we should tell it like it is.
I took part in the negotiations on the establishment of the committees when this Parliament first opened, in January 1994. We discussed the issue of offices. It took me two hours, on behalf of the Bloc, to select the offices of Bloc members. It took about ten days for members of the Reform Party to do the same. They even chose a closet for one of their members. I think there is a problem at some level.
(1050)
I suggested to the Reform members that they could co-chair five committees, a first in the history of the Canadian Parliament, here in Ottawa. They said: ``We insist on having finance, commerce, agriculture, justice and industry.'' And a cherry on top, I suppose. I do not see what else they could ask for.
It does not make any sense. These people do not know how to negotiate and then they complain that things do not work well. I, for one, think that they should adapt to how things are done here. We are a sovereignist party. We, of course, have major disagreements with the party in office, but we agree on how to disagree. We can agree on the rules and say: ``Here is how things will be done.'' Then, of course, the going gets tough, but we have agreed on the rules.
There is always some way we can work with these rules. We have done it before and we are a sovereignist party. We are able to work with the rules of Parliament. I do not see why a federalist party like theirs has trouble functioning here. The problem is not with the rules. The problem is with that party.
[English]
Mr. Strahl: Mr. Speaker, I am interested to hear the strong defence of the rule of law. I hope the members opposite will, during any referendum debates, ensuing negotiations and that kind of thing, stand by and say that nothing will happen to Canada except by the rule of law and observance of the Constitution. I hope they would do that, although I will not hold my breath. The rule of law seems to be a convenient thing for them.
One of the things I am talking about is that in committee, certainly we can obey the rules. Certainly we will observe the rules. The trouble is that there are no rule in the committee. Some committees only act as a law unto themselves.
Sometimes there is a good, experienced parliamentarian at the head of the committee. The member across the way is a fine example. We disagree with him in many ways. We disagree with many of his policies. We disagree with a lot of what he says and stands for.
Even on the gun control debate, a very heated and protracted debate, we had absolutely no problems with how he handled himself and how he handled the chair. That is not the case by and large.
There are inexperienced people, people being paid off or people who are being rewarded somehow who get to chair these committees and ramrod things through following the wishes only of the party leadership. That is not right.
The member opposite, a former justice minister with many years of experience, whether I disagree with him politically or not, is at least fair in committee and I do not have a problem. It is interesting that when he votes against the government, when he stands up for what he knows is right as he did a year ago, he lost his chairmanship. We do not have the benefit of his experience any longer. That is a shame.
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure to debate this issue today on committees.
Although it is a debate about committees, it could almost be a debate about democracy itself. It is really a debate about the definition of democracy in a way that it fits our committee structure.
I could talk about committees in general. My colleague has already brought up specific examples of committees. I could speak about them in general but I will start with some comments about a committee that is probably the worst committee on the Hill. It is perhaps the best example of what I would call manipulated democracy.
That committee is the committee that decides whether private members' bills will be votable. Just before the summer break in June 1996, a member from the government side of the House, the member for Mississauga East, had her comments about the committee that had just decided that her private member's bill would not be votable quoted in the Hill Times: ``I am not suggesting that it is a kangaroo court. It is more like a cockroach court. You cannot see them at work and then they run away''.
It is a really good description of what that committee stands for. The member from the government said had a private member's bill that would have ended concurrent sentences and forced rapists and murderers to serve consecutive sentences for multiple crimes. That bill was made non-votable because the government side had decided it did not want that issue to go to a free vote in this place.
(1055)
Can a member of this House get an explanation of why it was non-votable? Can she or he find out what happens in that commit-
tee? No. There are no records kept. There are no notes. It is all done in secret behind closed doors with no records kept. No wonder the member for Mississauga East called it a cockroach court. As she said, we cannot see them at work and then they run away.
That member's experience is not unusual. It has happened to me. Every single one of the private member's bills and motions that I have put forward has been made non-votable. Maybe there were good and logical reasons for that to happen but there is no way that I could get an explanation for that. That for me certainly and perhaps anybody in this place who has put forward a private member's bill is the worst committee on the Hill.
As the member for Mississauga East said, if she had a bill that offered better treatment for criminals it would race through the place in a week, but if you have a bill that wants to side with the victims or correct obscene injustice in our system you can expect resistance and many years of effort and debate. To that member, welcome to the club, because that is what this side of the House is fighting the entire time.
Last year there were a total of 16 private members' bills which would have toughened up the justice system and not one of them could get past the system that is put in place through these committees to prevent it from ever becoming law. Even the ones that are made votable by that cockroach court committee that end up being passed in this House by the members get referred to committees which then stonewall them, delay them and keep them there under the orders of the ministers until they disappear completely off the map.
We see those examples over and over again. The bill that would have rid section 745 from the Criminal Code passed in this House and yet the committee and the minister are defying the will of the members here. It is contempt of Parliament in our estimation.
The members on both sides of this House are demanding more and more that all of our private members' business should be made votable and that the committees should stop interfering with the process. We should be permitted to bring the will of the people to this place and to put it through and turn it into law. I certainly hope we will soon see the disbanding of this cockroach court committee which has been a major problem for us.
The problems of the committees are really symptomatic of a load of problems that go right through the system which operates here, that makes this place almost just frosting. The real issue, the real cake, all happens behind closed doors. Everything is predecided and this is just the charade that happens on the top.
An example is I write letters to ministers about important issues about these committees. Months go by. A letter written to the justice minister remains unanswered after two months. A question on the Order Paper in this place, put here on October 5, 1995 with a 45 day answer period asking what sort of money the Squamish Indian Band gets in my riding has been sitting on the Order Paper since October 1995 and never answered. That is just another symptom of our constant problems.
My colleague from Fraser Valley mentioned the employment equity committee. I was sitting with him on that committee when the employment equity bill was considered last year. We were told that bill would be referred to committee before second reading so that members could have meaningful input to shape the bill prior to coming back for second reading in the House. What an absolute sham that was. It was unbelievable. When we describe it to people in the outside world away from this place they can hardly believe that it is true, what we tell them.
There was a time limit-arbitrary rules created by the committee-to discuss any clause. It did not matter how long it was, how short it was. Five minutes included the time it took for the government member to read it out and describe what it was all about. My colleague from Fraser Valley and I were denied the opportunity and ability to even ask questions of expert witnesses who were at that committee, experts from the government side. We were not even allowed to question them. We had questions from our constituents and we were denied the right to put them. That bill was rammed through the committee after hours, at short notice, when it was impossible for us to get witnesses to come to the committee. This is an abuse and a manipulation of democracy. It is unacceptable.
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One example my colleague from Fraser Valley gave was how the chairman decided he had had enough discussion and just passed something by himself. We had another example where we managed to catch a few of the government members napping and got a particular clause through and the chairman reversed it by himself. He changed the vote. The vote was yes and the clause passed. He said it was no and it had failed. We were unable to get that reversed. Days later when we came back into this House and appealed to the Speaker for justice to be served and these decisions at the human resources committee to be reversed, we were told that the committees were their own masters.
I have another example. I sat on a small committee which was looking at the boundary changes in North Vancouver. There were only three members on that committee, two from the government side and myself from the Reform Party. There were about five clerks there, one to watch translation, one to watch what's going on and others whose jobs I do not know, five people and the three of us. We had to elect a chairman. One of the government members asked me if I minded if he nominated the other government member to be the chairman. I told him I knew how it worked around here and he should do what he had to do. So he nominated the other Liberal member to be the chairman. Then they both look
at me to second the nomination. Can you believe it? ``Not a chance'' I said, ``you can't expect me to do that, it is not democratic''. They looked at one another for a moment, looked at the clerk, and the clerk said that we could always change the rules, so they did. They changed the rule so they did not even need a seconder to elect the chairman.
The whole committee system is a disgrace. I could go on for an hour giving examples. I see my time is up and I welcome questions and comments. I will just say that this needs changing badly.
[Translation]
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, like my colleague from Laurier-Sainte-Marie who asked a question a few moments ago, I also agree that we can support some of the arguments put forward by the Reform Party. It is indeed difficult to work in committees where the majority of members are on the government side. Since the government exhibits a certain amount of ministerial solidarity within committees, it is difficult for us to win every time. It is part of the game of democracy.
In this context, it can be very frustrating for the Reform Party, as well as for the official opposition, to have requests or proposals rejected sometimes.
I would like the member to tell us what changes he thinks should be made to improve the committee system. Before knowing if we can support their position and if we can denounce the government's attitude on this issue, I would like to know what alternative the Reform Party is proposing for these committees. What democratic system would it like to see put in place in order to be able to achieve its aims, because I suspect that under all this lies a feeling of frustration with regard to proposals that were not supported by the majority in committee? What mechanism would Reform members suggest be put in place to ensure that other members who do not belong to their party would get the respect they deserve in committees?
[English]
Mr. White (North Vancouver): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his question about the operation of committees. There has been some discussion about the British parliamentary system. There is a lot of tradition involved in the operation of this place. That is absolutely true.
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However, all it takes is the political will to change these things which have been in place for a very long time. Most of these things were put in place to fit a time that has long gone, a time when the people were not well-educated and when communications were not very good.
When Edmund Burke said: ``You don't do your constituents any favour by representing their will'', that was 200 years ago. Today we live in the information age. Our constituents are exceptionally well-informed. They know what is going on in the world. They can find out the minutest detail about what is going on in this place.
I am sure all members have experienced from time to time constituents who know more about a particular bill and its possible problems or benefits than they do. There is a member over there from the islands who said that he never reads the bills. There are constituents out there who take a direct interest.
The suggestion from Reform is that we can run on a general mandate of what we stand for but within that we must have flexibility to suit the information age and the flexibility to adapt that agenda to comply with the will of the people, the people who, after all, are paying our salaries. This means that when a committee goes travelling across the country taking submissions, it should truly take democratic submissions so that it is not a predetermined outcome and that it truly wants to know what Canadians want and is prepared to have the political will to adjust its agenda and get away from partisanship.
It does not happen very often. If we look at the past three years in this place, I have had to vote three times contrary to my party mandate in order to represent my constituents' wishes on government bills. Therefore, it is not something that happens every day. It is on very carefully considered issues. I do not suffer any consequences from being able to do that.
It is a new democracy. All it takes is the political will. I would urge members to get behind these changes so that we can get real democracy in this place.
[Translation]
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I regret to have to say in this House that it seems to me that the Reform Party has chosen a topic for debate this morning that would have been more appropriate for a supply day.
The hon. member from the Reform Party did not reply to the last question I asked him. I threw the ball into his court by asking him, through you, if he could tell us how he would like us to operate in committees. He did not answer the question.
What is at the bottom of all this is the Reform Party's frustration at not occupying the position of official opposition in this Parliament, and at not being able to obtain the number of vice-chairs that it would like in committees. That is the real issue.
Under the guise of a free vote, the Reform Party would have us believe that it allows its members to vote as they wish, that they do not have to toe the party line. I would like to hear from them what happened to Jan Brown, what happened to her? I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I ought to have used the name of her riding.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I am sorry, but nobody can hear you right now because my microphone is on, not yours. Only one person may rise at a time. The member corrected himself, but I would like to remind the House that when speaking about our colleagues we must use the name of their riding or their department.
Mr. Laurin: As I could not be heard, I will correct myself now that my microphone is back on and say that I should have said the member for Calgary Southeast. I would like the members of the Reform Party to tell me what they did with the member for Calgary Southeast when she decided to vote freely, when she decided not to toe the party line, because she found it too radical, too extreme?
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That MP was not allowed to remain in the party, she was expelled. Today, they are telling us, with a ``holier than thou'' air, that they advocate the free vote within their party. Granted, but on certain minor bills only. If, for instance, the Reform Party were to introduce a bill on the use of cow hair in mortar, I do think it could let its members vote freely on something like that, but on fundamental and vital questions which were part of a party's election platform, it is important for solidarity to be maintained, and that must extend to the committees as well.
I also have doubts about how sincere the Reform Party members are, because we have seen them in action in committee. In the three years since we were elected, every time committee chairmen and vice-chairmen are selected, the Reformers opposed having a Bloc Quebecois member as head of the public accounts committee, for example, or as vice-chair of other committees-because, traditionally, a member of the party in power heads committees except that the public accounts committee is chaired a member of the official opposition.
The Reform Party would have liked to be the official opposition, but unfortunately the voters decided to give them two seats less than the Bloc Quebecois. Terribly frustrated by this, the Reform Party decided to try to change the rules, to change tradition. True, this is not a Standing Order, but it has always been parliamentary tradition to have a member of the official opposition as the vice-chairman of a committee.
The Reform Party ought to have put more effort into its election campaign so that more of its candidates could have been elected. Then it would have been recognized as the official opposition and would have had that privilege. With all their talk of democracy and British tradition, Reformers ought to know that democracy and British tradition recognize that the majority rules.
As it happened, the Bloc Quebecois won more seats than they did, but they refuse to accept this, and that too is just another excuse, because the real reason they are making such a fuss about how vice-chairs, how Bloc representatives are chosen in committees, is not that Bloc members are involved but especially because Bloc members are sovereignists.
We are sovereignists because that is what our platform is about. We presented our platform to the people of Quebec, who democratically elected to send us to Ottawa with a majority to represent them. The people of Quebec chose so wisely that, as a result, we became the official opposition. Quebecers owe themselves a vote of thanks now because they are well represented.
Reform Party members would like to see this sovereignist position, this political option prevent us from having the democratic right to sit on committees. Because we are sovereignists, they would like to see Bloc members denied the right to be vice-chair of a committee.
If we did not have that right, why would we have the right to have a member on the committee? If we have no members on the committee, where does that leave our democratic rights? Is this not about the most elementary respect for democracy?
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The most elementary respect for democracy means accepting the decision made by voters in a riding, in a province, to send representatives to the House of Commons. That is the most elementary respect for democracy. Denying someone a vice-chairmanship because it is not convenient this time around is not a good reason. A person holds opinions we do not share, and as a result, we deny him the right to be vice-chair of a committee. If it were like that, we would not get very far in a democracy.
We saw the attitude of the Reform Party in the committee that dealt with the Jacob case, for instance. Oddly enough, they showed a great deal of solidarity at the time. The Reform Party members on that committee did not seem to be allowed much latitude to express their views. They all had to think the same way, otherwise they were not allowed to sit on the committee. If one member did not work out, they would substitute another.
And today the Reform Party tells us, with a ``holier than thou'' air, that it wants more democracy in committees. I agree that we are sometimes pushed around by the party in power which has a majority in all committees. I agree that the party in power, which has a majority and decides to exercise its solidarity, can beat us every time.
Mr. Pettigrew: That is what the people want.
Mr. Laurin: That too was the result of a democratic decision. I wonder what the Reform Party would do if it were in office. I would be curious to see if its position would be: ``From now on, you are free to elect whomever you want to chair the committee, in spite of the fact that we have a majority''.
Angels act like that, not the Reform Party, in spite of its ``holier than thou'' air. If it came to power, the Reform Party would be the first to insist that rules of democracy that are to its advantage apply; it would want to use them and would fight anyone opposed to their use.
I am sorry but the real subject matter of the debate today is the Reform Party's frustration at not being the official opposition, and that is how their remarks must be taken.
[English]
Mr. Bob Ringma (Nanaimo-Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to offer a comment based on what I have heard here this morning on the rule of law. My colleague, the member for Fraser Valley East, was very specific about it. He said this Chamber operates under the concept that law is king. He said the Latin for that is lex Rex.
He went on to describe what committees do, that this is not the rule of law. He said instead, committees seem to operate under the rule of politics, that the political system is Rex, is king. He did not know the Latin for politics is king.
I have done a little research and I have this to offer to the House. I believe the Latin translation for that as it applies to the committee system is tyrannosaurus Rex, which comes from the dinosaur era.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I do not know if the hon. member for Joliette wishes to comment on his colleagues' remarks.
Mr. Laurin: I do, Mr. Speaker. Such remarks are surprising, coming from the hon. member who just spoke, after his recent comments last spring and during the summer.
The rule of law does not mean much to people like that. What matters is their owns views, extremist views. When the law gets in their way, they get around it. When the people in front of them do not share their views, they try to get rid of them. If their skin is not the right colour, out they go. If they do not have the right political ideology, the right views about where this country should be headed, out they go.
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We have been here for three years and both the official opposition and the governing party have been saying all along that the Reform Party is a party of extremists whose attitude is reflected not only in official statements to the press and in the excessive behaviour displayed by individual members but also in each and every committee of this House. They would have people excluded on the basis of their political opinions. That is discriminatory. That is extremist. It is like racial prejudice, like being against religion.
Today, these people want to teach us a lesson in democracy. But they cannot even tell us how the committees should operate in order to be more responsive to public opinion.
I suggest that they think this over and I am confident that this is the last time they make such a request because not enough of them will get elected in the next election to be in a position to demand anything, whether in committee or in the House of Commons.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): The time allocation of five minutes for questions or comments is brief. I want to accommodate as many participants as I can. I simply ask for the co-operation of the member for Calgary Centre. If he could he either make his comment or pose his question within the one minute period then I could give the same amount of time to the member for Joliette to respond.
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the member talked about tradition and what we suggested should be used in the standing committees.
He referred to tradition. I would like to refer to the rules, and the rules are clear. We wish the standing committees would operate according to Standing Order 106(2):
Each standing or special committee shall elect a Chairman and two Vice-Chairmen, of whom two shall be Members of the government party and the third a Member in opposition to the government-The wording does not preclude members of the third party in the House from filling these positions.
Since 1958 the chairman of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts has been a member of the opposition, following British parliamentary tradition. Even Beauchesne's parliamentary rules and forms citation 781 states it is customary for the Standing Committee on Public Accounts to be chaired by a member sitting in opposition to the government. That does not preclude any opposition party. It does not refer to the official opposition, the tradition he refers to.
Procedurally no party member is precluded from assuming the position of the chair in any committee. A precedent was set during the third session of the 35th Parliament when members of the NDP, the third party-the third party in the House like us-served as vice-chairs to standing committees and subcommittees and chaired legislative committees.
This party is recommending a push for real openness and real free votes for chairs and vice-chairs, not the set up that the government perpetrates on each of the standing committees. That is what we are recommending. Allow the members to be masters of their own destinies and vote for their own chairs and vice-chairs.
[Translation]
Mr. Laurin: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Calgary Centre is absolutely right. True, this is what the law says but it is also true that we are often guided by the traditions and practices in our parliamentary system.
But if we look only at the legislation, the Bloc Quebecois proposed candidates for the position of vice-chair in the various committees and managed to convince the government representative to vote for them. All this proves is that we had the same right as Reform members. We exercised this right and, since we are better than they are, we managed to convince the government to vote for our candidates. That is why some of our members are now committee vice-chairs, and this was done democratically.
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the most extraordinary thing about parliamentary life is how one always has to expect the unexpected. Last night, when I went to bed, I certainly did not think that, this morning, I would be debating a report tabled by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
In 1993, during the election campaign, four major parties were trying to win the support of Canadians. There was the Liberal Party, which claimed to be in the best position to manage the affairs of the country. There was the Conservative Party, which, of course, made the same claim. There was the Reform Party, which wanted to change Canada and knew how to do it. And then there was another group, made up of separatists, sovereignists, who said: ``We want to go to Ottawa to protect the interests of Quebecers''.
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On October 25 of that year, the Liberal Party formed the new government, with a strong majority and, of course, the responsibility that goes with it. When you have a strong majority, you ultimately have the power to do what you want. This comes with a price though, and I think that, when the time comes, voters will make the government pay that price.
The Reform Party got 52 candidates elected, not bad for a new party. Unfortunately, the Bloc got 54 candidates elected in Quebec. In other words, we became the official opposition by a narrow margin. It was a narrow margin indeed-only two members-but we got it nonetheless.
The value of parliamentary government and the respect in which society holds it derive entirely from its rules and tradition. Accordingly, we became the official opposition. This did not thrill the members of the Reform Party, and I can understand that.
What I have more trouble understanding is that after three years, they have been unable to sort out common sense, logic and, finally, their responsibility as a party in this House to ensure that the House's time is used intelligently. They wanted to reform Canada. When their members are capable of taking up the time of this House for matters which are very interesting but somewhat dubious, we have to wonder what is going on.
What does the time of the House mean? It means 295 members who are here to defend their constituents' interests, it means staff who work with these members, it means the House's support staff. When the House's time is wasted, tens of thousands of dollars are being thrown out the window.
My colleague, the hon. member for Joliette, mentioned the Jacob affair. Everyone remembers the Jacob affair, I should think. In any future discussion of the 35th Parliament, it is one issue that will stand out. We listened to the Reform Party, we appeared before the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, much work was done and the final conclusion was that there was not really any basis for the charge.
As for what we are hearing this morning, and with any luck the debate will be over at 1.55 p.m., there is not really any basis for it. I can understand that it is frustrating for the Reform Party to see members of the official opposition holding the position of vice-chair on each of the committees for three years, but that is one of the responsibilities of the official opposition. The governing party has understood that, and finds it perfectly reasonable to vote for the candidates the Bloc Quebecois submits to committees.
There are certain actions that go along with the recognition of responsibility. I feel that the governing party can live with us as the opposition, and I am totally in agreement with that. I have no problem with that.
It is quite another thing, however, to say that it is easy to work in committee. It is not. Sometimes one has good ideas, is convinced they are excellent ideas and can make a valuable contribution to the government's bills, but sometimes, unfortunately, our valuable contributions end up in the waste basket. That is the government's choice and the choice of the majority in committee.
What we have to demonstrate is that our arguments, our contributions, are important and have real potential for improving the lives of our fellow citizens. When we work in committee and try to convince our counterparts on the government side that this or that amendment is important and should be passed by the committee, and subsequently by the House, we are doing our jobs.
We may regret that we are not always successful in doing so, but I do not think it is productive to take up three hours of debate to say that one is not in agreement with the report tabled by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and that really, everything ought to be done according to a free vote.
When we ask ordinary people, the people who constantly switch channels on their tv and end up getting bits and pieces here and
there, who sit around discussing this and that, what they think about politicians, their answers are not always very reassuring.
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It hurts to hear this, when we have the impression we work hard and are doing our best. However, if they are watching us today, and I imagine some of them are, they will inevitably start wondering and say: ``What on earth is going on? Let them go to work in committee, instead of wasting their time''. They may have a point there.
However, I wish the voters watching us this morning would remember one thing, and that is that the parliamentary system works according to certain rules, which means there is a price to pay when we have a majority government and there is also a price to pay when a party is the official opposition thanks to a single member.
I would therefore urge them to elect a sizable official opposition in the next election, which will probably be held within a year. I am convinced the official opposition will come from Quebec, because to me it is clear that as far as the rest of Canada is concerned, the Reform Party is not up to forming an official opposition with a sense of responsibility and capable of acting accordingly.
Amazing, Mr. Speaker. You are signalling that I have one minute left, so I will do you a favour: I would rather not take it. I am sure my Reform Party friends have plenty of questions to ask and perhaps members opposite as well, you never know, so thank you, and I will wait for their questions.
[English]
Ms. Val Meredith (Surrey-White Rock-South Langley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I find it very interesting that the member for Laval Centre is the only one I know who has brought up the Jacob decision or transaction in the committee. She is the one who brought it forth, not the members of the Reform Party.
We were not questioning the decision of that committee here in this discussion. I find it absurd that members of the Bloc party can question our concern about committees. If members of the Bloc party really think that being the official opposition is the be all and end all, then maybe they should have the courage to put candidates in all of the ridings across this country and see whether they have the support of the Canadian people for the kind of issues and positions that they take. They know that they represent one province in this country. If anybody is extreme, it is the Bloc Quebecois members who are talking about leaving this country and breaking this country apart. If they do not call that extreme, I do not know what is.
I would like to ask the member if the Bloc Quebecois has the courage to put candidates in the other provinces other than Quebec in the next election.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I was negligent in not raising the issue earlier when it occurred the first time. I believe in the affair we are referring to we are referring to one of our colleagues. I would simply ask the co-operation of the House in reference to that particular issue that we would refer to the member for Charlesbourg.
[Translation]
Mrs. Dalphond-Guiral: Mr. Speaker, your point is well taken.
I want to inform the hon. member that whether something is extreme depends how you look at it. Yes, I referred to the case of the hon. member for Charlesbourg. I made that reference to use an example everyone would be familiar with. You know, when you teach a class, the best example is one that is crystal clear. For everyone in Quebec and the rest of Canada, the case of the hon. member for Charlesbourg is an example that is self-explanatory, and a case that took quite some time. The hon. member may think it extreme of me to bring this matter up, but I do not think that just because this case was closed by the House, we were bound never to discuss it again.
Fielding candidates in all Canadian ridings is an interesting point, but the hon. member should remember that we are here to defend the interests of Quebecers and to stand up and say what is wrong with this system, because there is something wrong with it. I see the hon. member is smiling. I am sure this means he agrees with me. There is something wrong with the system, and we believe it is not only our right but our responsibility to say what is wrong on behalf of the rest of Canada, when we wear our official opposition uniform, which we do quite elegantly.
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[English]
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I listened to the dialogue. With regard to the investigation of the member for Charlesbourg, the member has basically stated that it was a waste of time. What she is saying in fact is that the House made a decision of its members to do something and that this entire House therefore was the cause of wasting its own time.
The member may want to reconsider whether or not the integrity of the House is being brought into question, because it was our decision and not a committee decision to undertake that investigation.
[Translation]
Mrs. Dalphond-Guiral: Mr. Speaker, I will give one response to that comment: in its highly democratic spirit, of course, the House agreed to have a committee examine the case of the hon. member for Charlesbourg.
What I mean is, if the Reform Party had not introduced a motion, as far as I know, I do not think the House would have had to use such precious time to come to the conclusion, following the tabling of the procedure committee report and our minority report, that, ultimately, there was nothing to make a fuss about.
It must be recognized that we sometimes waste our time. It is not because a decision was made that, a posteriori, we cannot say that, in fact, there was nothing to fret about. So, our time was wasted somewhere.
[English]
Mr. Paul Zed (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to the debate this morning. I have also been, with some interest, involved in the matter that led up to this debate coming before us today.
As a new member of this House, I too have found it to be a learning curve challenge to deal with some of the issues of the standing orders, the rules, the decorum and the general principles of governing ourselves as members of this House and as members of the other house.
Frankly, I think that on balance, one of my frustrations when I listen to some of my colleagues from the Reform Party is based on the fact that they-
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Order. I hesitate to interrupt the proceedings and particularly the parliamentary secretary, but I have been apprised by our table officers that there is a technicality here that I think we should clear up.
The parliamentary secretary in tabling the motion earlier is deemed to have spoken. Therefore, just to assure myself that we are following the correct parliamentary procedures here, I will have to ask the House for consent to permit the parliamentary secretary to continue his intervention. Is it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Zed: Mr. Speaker, there is a good example where a rule has come up and we learn by our inexperience.
The point is that we need to look at what the government said when it was the Liberal Party of Canada in the 1993 federal campaign.
In that campaign there were a number of commitments which dealt with parliamentary reform. They included the commitment that would give members of Parliament a greater role in drafting legislation through House of Commons committees. That was a commitment we made. We made a commitment that would permit a parliamentary review of order in council appointments.
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It was a commitment we made as a Liberal Party. We stood before the people of Canada and said that was a principle. We all felt in the run up to the 1993 election that the respect the people of Canada had for members of Parliament was low. Now that we are at our places in the House we all have a responsibility to try to enhance and improve the respect and the integrity of the system.
We also talked about more free votes in the House of Commons in the lead up to the campaign. We talked about the fact that members of Parliament should be involved in the prebudget consultation process.
Frankly, whether or not the Reform Party members have accepted this, we won the election. Therefore, our platform is the one which will be adopted and imposed. Despite their opposition, I am somewhat sympathetic to certain remarks that were made by the whip for the Bloc Quebecois this morning. All parties have to work together at committees to produce and enhance the work of the government as it is presented.
As I was thinking about what I wanted to say this morning, I was really struck by the very first line in Beauchesne. It states:
The principles of Canadian parliamentary law are: to protect a minority and restrain the improvidence or tyranny of a majority; to secure the transaction of public business in an orderly manner; to enable every Member to express opinions within limits necessary to preserve decorum-We must have certain limits and certain rules. Just because the Reform Party members do not like the rules, they want to change the rules.
The rules have become part of the Canadian tradition which adopts the principles of the British House of Commons, the principles that all members have respected. Notwithstanding those principles or precedents, the Liberal Party of Canada came forward with a series of changes and said that there were certain flexibilities it would like to build into a new approach to Parliament. We ran on them and we got elected on those and we implemented them.
On February 7, 1994 our government House leader brought forward a substantial motion that detailed changes to basic House rules. He stood in his place and said that there should be a motion to change the rules. He talked about the fact that he wanted to implement a number of commitments that our party made in the election campaign and in the speech from the throne. That is how it works. He talked about a revitalization of Parliament.
Not everything the Reform Party has said is wrong. Not everything the Liberal Party, the Bloc or other Canadians have said is wrong, but we have a set of principles of British parliamentary tradition that we have had for hundreds of years. When we look at how Canadians have reflected on this Parliament and the previous Parliament during the mandate of this government since 1993, it speaks volumes about how Canadians have reflected on us as members of Parliament. I do not say that in a partisan way. I talk
about it as the hard, good work that has occurred on committees such as the industry committee, government operations committee and the lobbyist committee.
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As a new member of Parliament I have been given the opportunity and the honour to have served shoulder to shoulder with members from the Reform Party and the Bloc where we work together in procedure and House affairs to resolve difficult and complex issues when legislation comes after first reading to our committee as it did with the lobbyist bill.
We were given a rare new Canadian opportunity, an opportunity that lived up to the commitment that we made as a government and as a party. We said that members of Parliament should be given more flexibility and so we effectively drafted new legislation.
We had a minister come before our committee who said: ``Here is my bill, my opportunity to present my best chance to give you how I believe a policy should be implemented on lobbying''. The committee took this very seriously and worked very hard with members of the Reform Party, the Bloc and with our own members. We had members of the Liberal Party agreeing with the Bloc. We had members of the Liberal Party agreeing the Reform. At the end of the day we had a very good quality result. The result was a better piece of legislation.
We brought the minister back and he said: ``I think you have gone a little further than I might have gone but if that was the consensus I am prepared to accept it''. I use that as an example of the credibility of members of Parliament. Frankly, our credibility is at stake every day because all members of Parliament at the end of the day have to work together. They do not have to agree on everything from hair style, suits or opinions but we respect each other's opinions.
One of the frustrations that I find with what Reform members have suggested in certain comments today is how committees have manipulated democracy. Frankly, what I worry about is in whose view of democracy have they manipulated? Is it their view? Is it the people's view? Which people of Canada's democracy have we talked about?
The issue is not that the government has failed to live up to its commitments. The real issue is the Reform Party has failed to understand that it did not win the last election. Many of my colleagues know I have tried throughout my career in Parliament to be a non-partisan chairman at industry, at government operations, at lobbyists and procedure and House affairs. At the peril of my own party I have tried to be a non-partisan chair of a committee.
I find it most irritating when I see members opposite, particularly in the Reform Party, trying to portray the government as manipulating democracy because their characterization of that is a perversion of democracy. Their characterization is manipulating the true realities of how this place works. Many Canadians do not get an opportunity to get the flavour of what goes on in this place.
Frankly, perhaps rather than televising this place we could have more television at our committee rooms when a lot of the real work of what goes on at committees is what is going at this place for the work of the men and women who work shoulder to shoulder regardless of political persuasion.
Because there is a particular agenda in one particular party which represents only a very small part of that overall agenda, I find it irritating disruptive-
An hon. member: Rubbish.
Mr. Zed: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member calls it rubbish. It is important to look at what our party has done, at what we have accomplished, at what we have done and what we said we were going to do and at what Canadians feel about members of Parliament today.
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I feel better about being able to say to people when I get into a taxi, when I am in a restaurant or when I am on the street in a market that I am a member of Parliament than I might have characterized being a member of Parliament 10 years ago.
Elections are something that we have for 45 days every four or five years. I would urge those members of the Reform Party who have not bothered to read the newspaper to realize that they lost the last election to look at some of the polls about how Canadians feel about Parliament, that we are doing a better job. It is not as Liberals, although the Liberal Party is doing quite well. I am very proud of that record but those members should reflect on how Canadians view Parliament, how Canadians have viewed the committees that are working, the role of the member of Parliament.
I am very proud of the committees that I have worked on. I am proud of the work of the members of the Reform Party and the members of the Bloc Quebecois. They have contributed. We have become friends, colleagues and compatriots. We have become part of a process of changing this place and making it better. We have become part of making the British parliamentary tradition that we have so carefully preserved at this place more flexible, more current.
As the member for Surrey-White Rock-South Langley said, it needs to be something not spoken by Sir Edmund Burke 200 years ago. It has to be more modern. We have a more modern democracy and a more modern federation.
While I disagree with certain views of the Reform Party or certain views of the Bloc, we have become a better federation. I do not think it is fair to characterize the new government initiatives that were brought about as commitments in the red book to give members of Parliament more flexibility, more involvement with drafting legislation, and have them whitewashed as a manipulation of democracy. That is wrong. It is disruptive. That is intellectually dishonest.
An hon. member: That is rubbish.
Mr. Zed: There is a good example where a member walks into the Chamber, barks out ``rubbish'' and then wants to participate in the debate.
If Canadians want to look at what is really going on, perhaps they want to re-examine what is going on with certain members of the Reform Party. Frankly, it makes me very worried about democracy when I look at some of the extremist views that come out of certain elements in the Reform Party.
I respect the member's right. I would ask you respect our right to-
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I have been here since the beginning of the debate. There are strongly held views about this issue. Please allow the Chamber to do its work in the usual parliamentary fashion. We will get through this debate and all the others.
Mr. Zed: Mr. Speaker, I will conclude with what Reform Party members said when our government leader spoke about the reforms and brought forward the reforms, the enlightened changes in my view, to the House.
The House leader for the Reform Party, whom I would consider a colleague and a friend, said the following. I respect what he says. The members of the Reform Party should listen carefully to these words and take heed of them: ``Mr. Speaker, today is a very great day and one we should mark high on the marquee as being very important for the House, for Parliament and for the people of Canada. First I want to thank the government''. He spoke those words in reply to the government House leader. He spoke those words in response to the changes, the initiatives we brought forward, to the initiatives we campaigned on, to the initiatives we have implemented.
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An hon. member: Be specific.
Mr. Zed: If you had been listening to the debate you would know what the specifics were.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): I know that shortly we will get to questions and comments. I urge you to please make your interventions through the chair.
Mr. Zed: Mr. Speaker, I believe MPs have been given a greater role. I believe MPs have been permitted to have Parliament review legislation. I believe we have been given more free votes. I believe we have been more effective in becoming involved in the consultation process.
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I sort of enjoyed that presentation. It was a lot of good political rhetoric, not as good as the government whip who I still think trumps this particular member because he gets the political rhetoric up to a different level. I did not believe most of it, but still it was relatively good rhetoric.
The question I have is two-fold. This was asked of the government whip, and I will ask the deputy House leader. The committees are supposed to be independent and above board, masters of their own destiny. I asked the government whip if he instructs the members of the committee as to who should be the chairman and vice-chairman. The government whip would not answer. So I ask him the same. Who in the hierarchy in the Liberal party instructs who should be chairs of these committees?
Second, on the greater issue of fulfilling red book promises, one of the promises for parliamentary reform is that the position of deputy chair should go to one of the opposition parties. That was the position in the red book, written by the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands. That has not come to pass, even by the furthest stretch of the Liberal imagination. I wonder why that did not happen if it was a red book promise? What about these committees? Who chooses the chairman?
Mr. Zed: Mr. Speaker, this is certainly not a new complaint coming from the whip of the Reform party or from the previous whip of the Reform party, or the previous whip of the Reform party, or the previous acting whip of the Reform party. I get a little amused-the old expression that people in glass houses should not throw stones.
What I find curious is why members of the Reform party would want to have information about how the Liberal caucus operates? The committee operation is open. The Liberal party continues to be the most open party on Parliament Hill. We have democratic elections. We have democratic open contests. There is no fettering of that. There is no interference with that. We have a caucus system.
I make no illusions about the fact that I got elected as a member of a political party. We campaigned on it. We produced our information in black and white and we were elected on it. What I find a little curious is that we made commitments, got elected and delivered on those commitments. What part would the hon. member say we did not deliver on? Have we given a greater role to drafting legislation? How many pieces of legislation have gone to committee after first reading? How many parliamentary reviews have there been of order in council appointments by this Parliament? How many more free votes have there been in this Parliament than the previous Parliament?
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The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger): Before I recognize the hon. member for Chambly I should explain to the House that when we began the debate on the motion, the first time around each of the parties, the government, the Reform and the Bloc spoke. We are now reverting to the customary order for speakers and I will now go to the official opposition to see if someone wants to speak and then I will revert back to the government to see if there is a spokesperson and of course subsequently to the Reform Party.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am happy to stand up before you in this House to make a few comments on the attitude of the Reform Party today.
I am a member of this Parliament. With a senator I co-chair the Standing Joint Committee on Scrutiny of Regulations. As the hon. member who just spoke pointed out, it is in the committees that the real political work gets done. It is there that members can have an impact on the legislative process, often without regard to how parties are represented on the committee.
This morning, for example, I attended a meeting of the industry committee at which another member like myself asked pertinent questions and tried to influence the position of the Liberal majority on the committee. Judging from the reaction of the other members and of the Liberal majority, I now believe that his proposals may be approved. That is the ultimate reason why members sit on any committee.
It is the same for the regulations committee, where a Reform member often asks relevant questions and contributes ideas the committee needs, because they often-not always, but often-reflect common sense and a real search for solutions.
For example, I must point out to the Reform Party, the third party, that since the real political work is done in committee, it is normal for those who appoint the committee executive to choose people who tend to share their views.
That is probably why, in many respects, the Liberal Party is in perfect harmony with Bloc members, and that is probably why Liberal members on a committee will often vote for a Bloc member as vice-chair. In fact, other than on sovereignty issue, if you look at the record of the debates and votes held in this place, you can see that the Bloc Quebecois has often adopted or already shared the Liberal position. That is politics.
By contrast, and I must remind Reform members of this. They often come here to defend the oppressor rather than the oppressed, and I can elaborate on this.
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They often remind me of this joke a member told me a while ago. Two young men are trying to steal a purse from an old lady on the street, but she puts up quite a fight. He said-that is how the joke goes: ``I stepped in and the three of us had no problem snatching the purse from her.'' What the Reform Party is doing in this place is similar.
Take for example the banking legislation, the Interest Act introduced in this place. That year, banks had made between $3.2 and $3.4 billion in net profit after taking advantage of every allowance for bad debts permitted under the law. The Reform Party-I had not travelled as extensively in Canada at the time as I have since-objected to telling the banks that their profits were excessive and that they should loosen their stranglehold on consumers.
The Reform Party voted unanimously against it. I figured that everyone in western Canada were either bankers or very wealthy, with close ties to banks. They could not be consumers or debtors; they had to be creditors.
I have travelled through there a few times since. Along the road, I have seen houses no more sumptuous or larger that those in rural Quebec. I noticed big equipment, probably mortgaged or financed, in some people's back yards. They could have used the kind of assistance provided for in this famous piece of legislation.
No Reform member rose on party lines to say that the banks were doing a little too well. Reform members all voted against the bill presented by the hon. member for Portneuf calling for the employees working in a company just before it went bankrupt to be given priority when assets were distributed, even ahead of the banks. Unanimously, Reform members voted against. They are not right of centre, but extreme right wing, which is unfortunate.
They would like the majority to submit, to shut up, and to let them have the whole playing field. They think they could go ahead with hare-brained ideas like reinstating the death penalty. Apparently, they even sent someone to the eastern bloc countries to learn how to give a good beating, how to flog people. They are pretty good at whipping themselves. They discovered something good, something equitable and fair: how to whip others.
Will we put up with such attitudes in committee? When the message does not suit Reform members, they go after the messenger. They kill the messenger. It is simpler to eliminate him, and thus silence any opposition.
I heard Reform members, puritans no doubt, saying that God did not make all men equal. He created the rich and the poor. It is not up to a man, a legislator, or society to restore a just balance. God created such a world, and we must respect His will. The poor have no choice but to die, or to starve. This is Reform's basic philosophy. The rich can become richer. God wanted them rich. This is the other side of Reform's basic philosophy.
Fortunately, in committee, and I acknowledge it, their views are somewhat less rigid. They know they are in a minority position and cannot impose such a philosophy, and this is what frustrates them.
Now, put yourself on the side of the majority. Will the majority let reformers run the show in committees and try to sell all sorts of preposterous ideas, all this is in the context of a political agenda so convoluted that is hard to follow?
In this particular case, I can understand that Liberal members would vote in favour of Bloc Quebecois members who, since the beginning, and in spite of having had just about every possible insult hurled at them, have been able to stay on course and follow their ideal and their philosophy, which is to show compassion for the poor and to have an understanding of the political situation in Canada, and in Quebec in particular.
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All these factors come into play and influence the outcome of an election to a committee.
I want to reassure reformers right now by telling them that the redistribution of the electoral map for the next election will greatly favour them. There will be several new seats in western Canada, including British Columbia and from Ontario on. This will be a golden opportunity for them to become the official opposition, as they so strongly wish. Are we to interpret their attitude this morning as a sign that they have come to the conclusion, as the party whip said, that they might be wiped off Canada's political map in the next election? They may have come to this conclusion but, of course, they will not all tell us.
All this to say that we cannot, in the committees, grant executive representation to a minority party. It cannot be done.
Since I only have a minute left, I will to reply to the member for Vancouver, who quoted a latin maxim of his own. Let me tell him one which I hope he will understand. It is not from me. It says: Vox populi, vox Dei. When the majority speaks it is the very basis of democracy and we must respect that. We must not start interpreting democracy. When democracy has spoken, we must respect it.
In response to what the member proposes, I will simply say that the nicest bird song is not always and necessarily the longest one. I say no to what he is proposing this morning.
Mr. Gilbert Fillion (Chicoutimi, BQ): Madam Speaker, I have been sitting here right from the beginning of this debate, and I have to admit I have not been able to understand what Reform members are driving at. What do they want?
None of them has been able to describe the kind of democracy they would like to see here.
But I did understand one thing. Reform members are unable to adjust to the system. Whether we work here, in the Canadian Parliament, in a workers' union, in a school, or a hospital, there is always a system that cannot be ignored. It is needed if we are to avoid constant strife and futile discussions, to avoid having to do without an established order. Under such conditions, it is extremely difficult to reach a consensus.
It is a well known fact that Reform members have a hard time agreeing among themselves. Just imagine the problem they have living within the system as it now stands.
To make things change, one must work from within the system. That is the way to improve it.
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I have to admit that I sometimes have a hard time accepting what goes on in committee. I sat on the public accounts committee, which is chaired by the official opposition. The chairman did an outstanding job, I have to say. He did not try to give preference to the official opposition during the proceedings. Instead, he tried to stick to existing criteria.
Since the chairman of the public accounts committee was a member of our party, I would obviously have liked to have preferential treatment and to get a little more time during the proceedings. But we followed the rules on allocation of time in committee.
There is room for improvement in the committees, and some procedures could also be improved. However, did Reform members make any constructive suggestions in that regard? In any case, in the committees I sit on, and especially in the government operations committee, I never saw nor heard any Reform member try to improve our operations. This is not to say that everything is perfect, far from it, but within the committee everyone is allowed to express one's view.
Problems can arise when the time comes to table in the House a report on a committee; there too there might be room for greater information and above all improvement.
All committee members should be able to talk to each other, to have certain discussions, instead of constantly complaining that nothing works. This is how to improve things.
As we know, the Reform Party wanted to change Canada. Let us look at what it has been doing for the last three years. In my opinion, it has not succeeded in changing much, except, as I heard the hon. member for Vancouver North say this morning, for turning the House into a spectacle, into a farce.
I do not have to go back very far. Since the House resumed its work this week, what has happened here? We got to hear the same old stories, stories that took up a lot of the time of the House, that
kept members away from dealing with the real problems Canadians have. They used anything and everything to make a spectacle of this House.
We avoided true debate on job creation. We avoided talking about family trusts. Those are the issues people want to hear about. I find this morning's debate pointless. Why is this issue being raised again? Why challenge the Bloc Québécois' legitimacy as the official opposition and refuse to go by the rules of the Canadian parliamentary system? The voice of democracy has been heard.
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It is as a result of a democratic process, namely the last election, that the Bloc Quebecois, which has been mandated to protect the interests of all Quebecers in this House and has, until now, fulfilled its mandate in an honourable and dignified manner, became the official opposition. Why is its legitimacy always put in question by the same people, the same political party?
I can understand that there is some frustration, but at one point they have to get over that kind of frustration. They have to roll up their sleeves and get to work. I think that is still beyond the Reform Party. Why lose time on a pointless debate on procedure, that means nothing to Canadians, that will not change the way things are done and that will bring no improvements whatsoever, when we have so much to do?
Of course, they will blame it all on the separatists. But that is not the case. In committee, we have constantly made suggestions to the government, ever since it was elected in 1993, and we will continue to do so. We want to represent with dignity the people who elected us, my constituents and each and every Quebecer. That is how things should be done. If something needs to be corrected, we should go through the existing channels, make suggestions, hold discussions and things will improve.
Let me conclude by asking the following question: What have the members of the Reform Party done to improve the system? In my view, not a thing. I agree with my party's whip. So, ``until the next time''.
[English]
Ms. Margaret Bridgman (Surrey North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a comment and also ask a question of the hon. member.
The hon. member talks about democracy, structures, a waste of time and these kinds of things. In debate previous to this, reference was made to the same thing. I suggest to the member that Parliament has roles. I agree that we are elected and we come. The bulk of the members form the government and subsequently down the opposition.
I suggest very strongly that the role of the opposition is to critique. The third party is doing that. We do not see that coming from the official opposition. Someone has to do that regardless of what his or her mandate is. We also have to address the mandate of the House. That is in the traditional structure of this place.
He also mentioned that we have structures by which we function. I suggest that structures are human made and they can be changed. It is not necessary to continue to use something forevermore amen because it happens to be a structure that is in place. It is the role of the opposition to critique that structure and make it function as well as possible in today's environment.
I ask the hon. member if he feels that it is not a democratic principle to critique these things and bring to them a modern day concept of what is happening. The rest of Canada's citizens are asking us to do that and not just say it is a waste of time.
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[Translation]
Mr. Fillion: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for her question. I will answer this: When we want to change things, when we want to improve things, we have to work within the system, to discuss, to negotiate.
During this Parliament, committees operate in a way they never did before. So there is room for improvement and there is still time to act.
Now, as far as the Bloc Quebecois' role as official opposition is concerned, I must say that it plays that role fully, on top of its mandate, which is to defend the interests of Quebecers. Whenever the interests of Quebecers are at stake, we have solutions to suggest, we question the government, whatever the subject, whether it concerns what happened in Somalia, what is happening on the job creation front, what is going on with respect to family trusts or what is going on in the different committees.
In the committees, there are certain stands with which the Bloc Quebecois disagrees. On such occasions, we criticize and play our role as official opposition fully.
[English]
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate. Some members who have arrived recently may be wondering exactly what is going on in the House.
We are debating a motion which has to do with a report tabled by one of the House committees. Pursuant to the rules of this place, after the adjournment for the summer all committees have to be reconstituted. We need to have chairs, vice-chairs and the membership of all committees reassessed and reaffirmed by each of the parties. That report has come before this place for adoption.
Normally what would happen is that the report would be tabled during Routine Proceedings and a motion to accept that report
would be put. Then, by unanimous consent of the House, the report would be adopted and committees could proceed with their work.
That is not what is happening now. The motion to concur in the report of this committee and to accept the structure of the membership of the various committees of the House of Commons is being debated. It is being debated not because the government wanted to debate the work of that committee but because the Reform Party decided it wanted to take up some time of this place to talk about its wish list and to do a little whining.
Reformers want to talk about how awful it is that they did not form a government after the last election. They want to talk about how awful it is that they are not in charge of this place. One of the previous speakers made the point that they just do not understand democracy. So we are here and will be having this debate for four hours.
The point of the Reform motion is that there is a lot of wasted time here. Right now 295 members of Parliament are hung up, unable to do any work whatsoever in this place for four hours. Committees cannot even hold meetings because they are not officially constituted. They are waiting for this motion to be passed.
The hypocritical arguments of the Reform Party to this point are blatantly evident. The Reform Party does not even think it is important enough to participate in debate or to follow the debate.
Although this is a waste of time we have to go through it. Yet the issue here should not be a partisan debate on whether the Reform Party's views or the government's views or the views of any other party in this place are okay.
Madam Speaker, if you had been here last night you would have heard the very interesting speech of the member for Gander-Grand Falls which reflected what should be happening in this place.
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We were here until after 11 p.m. last night dealing with House business. A number of members were doing other work, making calls and getting ready for a vote that was to be taken, but when the member for Gander-Grand Falls rose in his place to give a brief intervention, people stopped and listened. Not only did they stop and listen out in the lobbies, they came into the Chamber and they took their places because they wanted to hear what was being said and they wanted to participate in the event.
The event was a barn burner of a speech. People were listening. People watching television I know were listening because here was a long time member of Parliament who is not a member of the cabinet, who is not a parliamentary secretary, who is not I do believe a chairman of any committee, but he is one of the most eloquent debaters in this entire House. People listen to what he has to say.
The point is, he is a member who is a model for all members. He is a member who is working as hard as he can to do one thing: to improve the image of people in political life, to improve the image of members of Parliament not only in this place but at home in their communities and as they travel across this country. Probably the most important work of any member of Parliament is to make their contribution in whatever way they are capable of, to improve the productivity, the image and credibility of this place like the member for Gander-Grand Falls does.
One of the important issues that has to be accepted in this place is that a majority government was elected in the last election. In some respects that is a curse to a government. A government that has a majority has complete control of the House. Democracy makes it so with the majority of the members in the House, provided they maintain solidarity among that team. They all ran for a party, they all ran for a platform and they are here to deliver on their promises. As long as that government is true to itself and true to its platform to the best of its ability and within its control, then it has the control of this place. It has the control to the extent that when issues come up and votes are taken, the government with a majority will win the vote. It is a quirk of democracy in that a majority government is fully in control of the aspects of this House.
That is a very frustrating position to be in, not only from the opposition party standpoint, but also for backbench members of Parliament who are one of a very large number of members of a caucus. It is very difficult for all members in this place to fully participate to the extent that opposition members do.
If you look at the news on any one night, the clips of the action in this House that were taken for the news will be of opposition members. An opposition member will get up and say: ``The minister over there was just protecting his own sorry butt'' and that gets on television. Another member will point their finger and make some rhetorical comment and that is on the news.
All members of Parliament regardless of whether they are on the government side or the opposition side, if they are doing their job effectively, if they are taking advantage of the opportunities available to them, have ample opportunity to demonstrate to Canadians what their salt is in this place, what their value is and whether or not they respect this place. This place must be respected.
I want to point out that we have four hours to debate a motion which is just going to review old arguments. This debate could not have taken place without the unanimous consent of the House. The Reform Party, the Bloc and members on this side of the House gave
unanimous consent. If Reform Party members were really so agitated about what was going on, they would look at all of the aspects of the operations of this House in which unanimous consent is asked for and required.
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There was one this morning when the parliamentary secretary rose to give a speech. Somebody realized that he was the mover of the motion and in fact was deemed to have spoken and technically should not have been speaking. The House was asked for unanimous consent to waive the rule and allow him to speak. The Reform Party accepted. It could have said no and he would have had to sit down and we would have moved on to the next speaker.
If members of Parliament who have a problem with the process would look very carefully, they would find that there are ample opportunities for them to direct the activities within this House, if they would only exercise them. However they do not.
I will tell the House why members of Parliament do not take advantage of the opportunities they have to direct the activities within this House. It is because it is clear to all members of Parliament here that regardless of political stripe and regardless of views on the issues, it is in our best interests, in the best interests of our constituents and in the best interests of all Canadians that we co-operate and make sure that this place is operating efficiently and that we are dealing with issues which are important to Canadians.
It means from to time to time members from all sides of the House have to co-operate. Therefore, we make deals. We co-operate with each other. We say: ``We will allow you to have this debate this morning but listen, we have to get our committees working. Therefore, why do we not agree to let this debate go forward and instead of for the full day let us cut off the debate?'' The Reform agreed, the Bloc agreed and the House agreed. We are going to at least limit this so that the vote on the motion can be taken before the House and the committees can go back to work this afternoon. That is co-operation and work.
Committees are an interesting beast. Someone said earlier that committees are where the real work takes place. That is absolutely true. As a backbench member of Parliament, I want to personally attest to the fact that it is in committees where the real work, the strong work, the intelligent work, the work which applies the experience and expertise of members of Parliament really comes into play.
When I have an opportunity to address the House, it is a very honourable and awe inspiring occasion. It is always a great honour to be able to speak in this Chamber. However, whenever I speak in this Chamber, the Chamber is generally empty. There are usually about 10 people in the House. I look up in the galleries and try to sense what the people are thinking: ``Gee, there are not too many people down there. Where is everybody? We pay for 295 members of Parliament. Where are they?''
We all know that right now many members of Parliament are making calls to constituents, writing letters, meeting people in their offices or at committee meetings. Things are going on on Parliament Hill all the time. We do not all have to be here. As a matter of fact we do not all have to participate in the debate on every issue. That would be tremendously unproductive for the House of Commons.
Therefore, we have a committee system. We have a committee system where hopefully each of the parties has assigned to their committees representatives from their parties who they feel have appropriate experience, expertise or certain things to contribute to the activity of that committee. It is in their best interests that the views of their party and the views of their constituents who are represented by those members are brought to bear at committee which is where it really happens.
I had the honour to chair a parliamentary committee on a drug bill. It went on for a year. I enjoyed the opportunity to lead a group of my colleagues through a very complex bill, as it ultimately turned out to be. I think we came back with some 70 amendments to a drug bill which dealt with all kinds of very interesting problems.
Being a member of the health committee, having served as an associate on the finance committee, having participated to some extent on the industry committee, I have had an opportunity to move around through various committees. I had an opportunity to make a contribution and to participate in the debate, to participate in the questioning of witnesses and to help focus on the relevant issues to the matter before that committee.
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It is easy to say that committees are free to do what they want to do. Technically, that is true. The parliamentary secretary quoted earlier from the first line of Beauchesne's which basically says that the rules, the limits and the principles articulated in the rules of this place are there to protect the rights of minorities. It means that things like unanimous consent are required. Even if there is a majority government, if we co-operate, that means we can be productive.
One of the most important changes that has happened in this House to make it a productive place was the change which was made and introduced by the government House leader with regard to voting procedures. We have had literally hundreds of votes in this place. In a vote it takes about 10 minutes to call the roll of the members. If we wanted to grind this place to a halt, consent should not be given to have any votes in this place without calling the roll each and every time.
Whoever says no to unanimous consent will do so at their peril because Canadians will quickly understand that the House is going
through a process that is not productive. We agree on a number of things and that means we can apply votes. It means that we can express the will of our constituents, of our parties or of our individual views.
We have had cases where ordinary members have voted in a way contrary to their own party. They voted their own views. We have had free votes. I am very grateful that the government has extended free votes on certain issues to its caucus. The other parties have done the same or similar things. They respect the values, the interests and opinions of their own members because there are certain issues that are not partisan issues. They are personal issues. They reflect social and personal values that someone holds very dear.
We will not force people to simply be lemmings that run and jump off the cliff if somebody says to jump off the cliff. Members have more integrity. We are here trying to improve the optics of the House of Commons, the integrity and the view of the integrity and image of people in political life.
This is a very honourable profession. It is a great honour to be here serving people. We all know that we give up a great deal to be here because we feel we have something to contribute. Most if not all members are giving up valuable family time to be here. Many members who live far away from Ottawa and who travel extensively to get home give up a lot of their own personal time to be here representing people because they feel strongly about it.
We know that nobody takes this job to get rich. Members do not get rich. Most members I know made a better living in terms of income in their former lives. I know many of the members. Look at their history. Look at what they have done in their communities. They have been involved at the grassroots level, at the local level of politics, at the provincial level and territorial level. They have been involved in raising money for causes they feel strongly about. They have track records and they are here because of those track records. They are here because they have experience and expertise that their constituents felt was important to bring to this place.
People have made that contribution as members of Parliament and we respect that. I hope each an every one of us is making progress, ensuring that our constituents and Canadians we encounter know we are doing the best that we can to improve the image of people in political life.
Having said that, is it good? We have seen the polls on what it is to be a member of Parliament and where we rank. It is very low. There is very little respect for people who are in political life. It is unfortunate. It has taken about 25 years to get there and it will probably take as long, if not longer, to earn back a measure of the respect we need in this place.
To get back to the issue of committees, some have suggested that we really should have certain parties as vice-chairs or whatever. I can tell of my experience in committees. I would not want to be a vice-chair. If a person cannot be the chair and at least have some control over the timing of the meeting and have an opportunity to apply one's wisdom, then I would rather be an ordinary member of the committee and be able to participate. f I had a choice and could pick what would be the best position for me I would rather be a member of the official opposition on a committee. The normal procedures and the rules of the House are that members of the official opposition get to ask the first questions of witnesses and make the first interventions. They get to ask all the good questions. They get to set the tempo and some of the focus of the committee meeting. Then it goes to the third party. By the time it gets around to government members in committee, there are few substantive matters to be dealt with. Very often, as we all know, time runs short because we only have a half an hour for a witness. Time runs out and government members do not even get a chance to participate. There are some awkward things.
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However, we have made progress in making this a more open place. As long as the opposition parties are going to be given unanimous consent, I will be comforted to see that unanimous consent coming forward. It continues to remind me that we all have to co-operate in this place. We do from time to time get into situations like this because we have to keep our feet on the ground and say: ``Let us get a little bit of that partisan stuff in there''.
I have tried not to make this a partisan speech. I respect my colleagues in this House. I do not agree with them on many issues but I respect their right to have a different opinion and I respect the opportunity to be able to continue to express my opinion in this place.
Ms. Val Meredith (Surrey-White Rock-South Langley, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the member for Mississauga South a question. He spoke about respect for parliamentarians and that the public needs to re-establish respect for the people who have chosen to serve their country in this manner.
I would like to ask the member how the public can respect members of Parliament and members of committee when often times we see that the chairpersons or other members of the committee do not respect the member of Parliament's right to represent his or her own opinion rather than that of the party in committee? Is that not something we should be dealing with? That person is there representing Parliament, not necessarily a political party, and he or she should be given the freedom to say what he or she thinks openly, rather than being controlled by the party whip. Is that not required as respect for that member in committee?
Mr. Szabo: Madam Speaker, the member raises a very good question. However, the member would agree that it does not get back to the issue of what are the implications to the House of Commons and to Parliament if a majority government is elected.
If I were in the Reform's position, I probably would share their frustration to some extent in certain aspects, for instance committees. If there is legislation or issues that the committee has decided to deal with and the government policy or platform is articulated and specific, the government members of the committee will support the platform on which they ran. They will support the legislation they are dealing with or they will support the opinion articulated by the party for which they ran.
Notwithstanding what the Reform or the Bloc or even other Liberal members have to say in committee, with a majority government situation there is no question that by and large the decisions made by that committee reflect the government position.
There are cases where very important changes have been made and very important points have been raised in committee. Committee is where the work happens. I know that the member has been very active in the justice committee. I know that this member and many other members working in committee do make very positive contributions and consultations in committee.
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As was suggested earlier, I wish that more committees could have their proceedings televised so that Canadians could see all members at work. What happens in this place happens in about 45 minutes during question period. That is where the theatre is. Canadians think that what they see during question period is what happens all day long in this place. It is not.
In fact this place is a forum for the opposition parties. I recall when a colleague from a long time ago asked the rhetorical question: ``What is the role of the opposition?'' Somebody blurted out: ``The role of the opposition is to deliver blows that would tenderize a turtle''.
It was a rhetorical question and a flip answer. But in this place when there is a majority government, that majority government is in a position to either deal with matters straight up or to have a little fun with them. Government members will be held accountable when they go back to the electorate. A majority government which is in control day after day is fully responsible for its decisions and for the results of those decisions. It means that even at committee the government still must call the shots. It is the one that is responsible, not the opposition parties.
Mrs. Daphne Jennings (Mission-Coquitlam, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I would like to comment on what the hon. member said and perhaps question him at the same time.
He speaks of progress in the committees. This is my first Parliament, so I would not be aware exactly what progress he is talking about. I am concerned that when the election of vice-chairs for instance is not an open and democratic process, where is the progress in that? We have ample proof that it is not. I am not going to waste the time of the members giving them examples for which I have facts. I would like the hon. member's comment on that.
I would also like his comment on this. I know that in the last Parliament that third parties had vice-chairs. Why is that not the case now? I know who it was too and that party only had 44 members in the House. Why could the third party in the House not have vice-chairs on the committees? That would be fair and progressive. If we are talking about progress that would certainly be progressive.
I am also concerned about the democratic process when a bill has been voted unanimously in the House of Commons and it is non-partisan. I hear this member talking considerably about partisanship. This particular bill was non-partisan. It was presented that way. When it went to committee it was voted down completely and buried. It was voted down in such a way that it could not come back to the House. The committee would not return it to the House. Yet technically and procedurally that bill was considered alive. It stymied anything that the member, who is working hard for non-partisan interests, could do.
When the bill came back to the House because of the prorogation last February the same thing happened. It went to committee and it was voted down, and would not be returned to the House. That is not a democratic process. We must do something to change it. I would like this member to give me his comments on this. How can we change it?
I happen to have a motion in. I put it in last June so it is far ahead of what we have been doing this last two weeks. We must address these concerns.
Third, I have suggested to those who are in charge of committees that when any information comes in from witnesses it is given to the member whose bill is on the committee agenda at that time. In fact, it must be given to the member whose bill is being discussed at that time or that member is at a disadvantage. I have also addressed that to those who are in charge of committees.
Could this member please comment on those three items?
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Madam Speaker, with regard to the vice-chairs issue, I understand that Reform would like to have people in the position of vice-chairs. They well know that committees have two vice-chairs, one is the government vice-chair and then there is the official opposition vice-chair. That is the pattern we have had.
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If the chair is not there, the government vice-chair takes over. If the government vice-chair is not there, then it would go to the official opposition vice-chair. That happens so rarely that in my view having a vice-chair position is actually a disadvantage. The opposition members who would not be in the chair would get an opportunity to question witnesses. I do not see it as a significant issue.
I understand parliamentary tradition. It is frustrating but I do not see it as a problem.
With regard to private members' bills I agree. The member will know that I have a similar situation with a bill, Bill C-222, on health warning labels on the containers of alcoholic beverages. It was dealt with at subcommittee. But the subcommittee did not take a vote on the bill. Rather, it referred it back to the main committee and said let us continue to study it. It is at committee now. It may never come out which is very frustrating.
The issue here is private members' business. I would support the reform of the selection of bill for private members' business. I do not believe we should be debating bills that do not qualify as votable. If a bill is frivolous there is no point in taking up the time of the House by talking for an hour about it. A bill which does not merit being votable should not go through the process.
For any bill that is passed at second reading and referred to committee, I do not support the committee failing to report the bill to the House. At least it should report that it has decided the bill has no merit. Then the House would have an opportunity to determine whether it shared that view. That would be an important clarification which I would support.
With regard to witnesses, it sounds like a technical matter. Anyone who has business before this House or a subcommittee should be privy to all documents. That is something the member could work out herself.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Surrey-White Rock-South Langley.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to join this debate. When I first ran for Parliament in 1993, I had a couple of real concerns about the preceding years. It seemed like the will of the people had not been heeded on many occasions. The Trudeau government began an era with all kinds of legislation being forced on the people of Canada although they objected to it.
When the will of the people guides the politicians we have a democracy. We do not have that, which is the problem with this place and this country and which is also the reason I am here. Instead, we have the will of the politicians who make decisions that affect the people, even if those decisions are against the wishes of Canadians. In my view that is tyranny, and that is what we have to break.
I find it amusing to hear the Bloc members debating the issue of democracy when they will not even honour a referendum of their own people that said no to separation. I wonder what part of no they do not understand. This was the result not once but twice. And they are talking about democracy. I find that kind of amusing.
Mr. Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville): Sadly amusing.
Mr. Thompson: Sadly amusing.
We are talking about the committees today. As I look about the room, I see the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce who was the chairman of the justice committee when I served on that committee. He did a very admirable job. He is a very fair individual.
However, I found it really discouraging. One day he chose to do what he felt he had to do as a politician, as a representative of some people, and voted a certain way. He is therefore no longer the chair of that committee.
One might say that those committees are supposed to be there for the benefit of parliamentarians. They will examine issues and do things right. We are going to put people in charge, in the chair positions, who are the most capable and the most able. I have found that is not so.
It is being used as a place of patronage if an MP is a good old boy or girl. If a member does not behave, they will be booted out and their position will be taken away.
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I see another member in here from Scarborough whom I admired on that committee because of his ability to go through legislation in a legal manner that I am not capable of doing as an ex-educator. I relied on his statements and opinions that he put forward on that committee. He was a valuable instrument as far as I was concerned. One day he chose to go against somebody over there on a little decision. So out he goes. We do not need him there any more and instead we will shove in somebody else. Guess who we shove in? Maybe not anybody nearly as competent but somebody who will do as they are told.
When you have a government constantly telling the people running this country to sit down, be quiet and do as they are told or face punishment, that is wrong. I am going to do everything I can to inform the people of this county about what is going on. It is a dictatorship, not a democracy. The sooner the voters realize it the sooner these guys will be gone. That is what I am waiting for. I hope for the sake of my grandchildren that is exactly what does happen.
In 1993 the Liberal party put together a red book of promises to act on if it became a governing body. On page 92 it states:
In the House of Commons a Liberal government will give MPs a greater role in drafting legislation through House of Commons committees.So much for that. How many of these pieces of legislation have received second reading approval in this House of Commons and go to the committee and there they lay? They were never brought back to the House to discuss. I find it absolutely deplorable that we are voting on Bill C-45 this week when about two years ago we had 78 members from that government vote to abolish section 745. Those same 78 will probably have to support Bill C-45 because a certain minister has said that is the way it will be.
That is a shame. Once upon a time they were in full support of a private member's bill that would abolish section 745 of the Criminal Code. Now we have a flip-flop. Why? The word must be out. You had better shape up. Is that what it is, you little puppets? When are you going to wake up and start being the men and women you were sent here to be and represent the people of Canada?
That statement of page 92 has turned out to be nothing more than a red ink book lie, another broken promise. They ought to be ashamed. It is a farce going through the motions. I felt like all we were doing on that justice committee was going through the motions day after day. One member from the government asked a while ago who reads it. There were some very conscientious workers from the Liberal government on that justice committee who tried their best to make some important changes. Consequently they will probably not be on that committee again under these social engineers we have on the front row of today's government.
An hon. member: There is nobody here today.
Mr. Thompson: We will use our imagination. That is what they use all the time.
There is a rule that we could follow. I talked to the chairman of our committee, the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce, and I said the member from Calgary Northeast and John Edwards, the past commissioner of Correctional Service Canada, and I visited the University of Alberta. We met with some researchers in their department who gave us some very strong messages: ``We must get our message to the Parliament of Canada, it is essential for the safety of Canadians''. I talked to the chairman of the committee and he suggested I put it on a letter and send it to the committee requesting that particular researching group to appear before a committee to tell it what they had found out because they were unable to get the ear of the government. Even Mr. Edwards indicated from his visit to the committee that this information should be brought to our attention and that it could be extremely important.
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On April 27, 1995 I wrote a letter to the chairman of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. I did not even get an acknowledgement, and I am on the committee. I did not get this before the steering committee for even a suggestion that we consider it. Nothing whatsoever happened to this.
I asked the next chairman to review this, look at it and he said: ``What letter? What request? I have no idea what you are talking about''. In 1995 the researchers told us that if something is not done about what we are finding out, in the very near future, within the next year or two, we will see a major increase in HIV in the prisons across this land. We could do something about it but we have to have the ear of the government. You try to do that through a committee where you are supposed to. Not a chance.
They are going to get the ear of the government because I am going to the press. We will get it out. I am going to the researchers and they are going to join me. The message will get out. They have been ignored.
Suddenly last week we see a huge increase in HIV and hepatitis C in the prisons because a non-democratic body of people are not interested in what the opposition has to say. I say opposition is right here, not there. They are in with the Liberals on so many pieces of legislation they ought to have a copy of the red book to go along with the other propaganda they read.
I hope the Canadian people will wake up one day and realize what kind of people are operating this country. It is not a democratic group. We need a change.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I served on the human resources development committee for two years after being elected to Parliament. I would like to recount a bit of my experience on that committee and ask the hon. member for Wild Rose to comment.
One of the first things the government mandated that committee to do was consult Canadians. We were instructed to make a cross-Canada tour to find out how social programs should be changed, reformed and modernized.
As a young rookie parliamentarian I felt that was very important thing we needed to do. One of the reasons I was elected was to change and modernize Canada's social programs. Canadians wanted to preserve some of their most valuable social programs and so I participated in that complete tour. We went across Canada and consulted for over six weeks. We amassed volumes and volumes of material on what Canadians wanted to do. I was excited about the possibilities of what could be done.
The tour cost millions of dollars. We went from Yukon to Newfoundland to consult Canadians about what the wanted to do with unemployment insurance, pensions, welfare, health and all
the areas under this entire umbrella. It was virtually half of government spending.
Canadians told us very clearly what they wanted to do with unemployment insurance. That was one of the special interests I had on this. Canadians wanted unemployment insurance to again be a true insurance program. They wanted a lot of the things the government had put into that program taken out and made a true insurance program with employers and employees having a much greater say in how the funds would be managed.
I was most disappointed when at the end of this tour the minister completely disregarded what the committee had done. The minister completed disregarded the input Canadians had through that committee.
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I was shocked at the amount of money that was wasted. All of this material was simply shoved away. I do not know what room it was put in but it would have taken a fairly large room to house all of the submissions that people, in good faith, thought were going to be heard by this government. It was completely disregarded. This was a farce, as my colleague said.
The government claims it will listen to the committees, that the committees will be effective and have an influence on the agenda. There is concrete proof that absolutely nothing was done. This committee process was an absolute joke. The government completely disregarded the report and the recommendations that were made.
A government that claims that the committees will be effective and which made that promise in its red book has completely reneged on that. I am very concerned that it continues to give the impression that through the committees effective changes will be made to legislation. That is not happening. I have been an eye witness to the waste of money and time these committees are because Canadians do not have a say even when the government tries to give the impression that it is consulting.
Would the hon. member have any comments with regard to that? I think it is a serious matter which I have not heard addressed. However, it continues to go on behind the scenes all the time.
Mr. Thompson: Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for the question. I do agree. I know what he is talking about. He is talking about a group of people who have been put together to go through the motions.
The decisions on all of these issues are already made. They are made behind the closed door of the minister's office. That has been evident over and over again in the last three years. The decision is made but they go through the motions and pretend that the committee is really having some input and the Canadian people are really having some input. It is all a joke.
On January 16, 1994-I will never forget the day-the social engineer from the justice department, our justice minister, said: ``Get your submissions in for the Young Offenders Act''. I can tell this House that they came from all across the land, thousands and thousands of them, including my own. They arrived in that minister's office and then the committee was struck. We then got Bill C-37 which was approved by this House.
Guess what? After all that work, the committee is going to tour around and see what the people want to do with the Young Offenders Act. It is a joke, a waste of time and a waste of taxpayer dollars.
Ms. Val Meredith (Surrey-White Rock-South Langley, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I have sat on several committees and would like to support my colleague by saying there have been some good chairpersons from the government side who have taken on their role very judiciously. However, I have also sat on a committee that broke the rules and changed the membership to accomplish what it wanted accomplished, which was to kill a report from the subcommittee on national security.
This committee met, and I will only use the 1995 year, for seven months. It spent over 35 hours hearing witnesses and preparing a report. During this time the member for Scarborough West was a member of the government and led the government's attack or representation on dealing with a report from SIRC, the security intelligence review committee, that we were reviewing.
This individual put hours of research and represented the government in what I thought was a very competent manner. He has a very astute legal mind and offered a lot in the discussions and debates on this report. As I said, the committee members sat for over 35 hours listening and cross-examining the witnesses to get as much information out as we could.
The members of the committee, which included the Bloc member and the Reform member, got to the fourth draft of a report on September 8. This report was being prepared to be introduced and tabled in the House of Commons by the end of that month.
However, lo and behold, one of the other members of this committee, obviously on instruction from the party and the government, which the member for Windsor-St. Clair who maybe had not understood the issues but who participated in the discussion, had been involved in bringing this report to a fourth draft.
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On September 19 the government made sure that this report would not go on, would not be tabled in the House of Commons. The government took the member for Scarborough West off the committee. He was the only government member who probably had actually read the report under discussion and knew anything about it and he was taken off the committee. The government
replaced him with an individual who had not sat for over 35 hours listening to witnesses with a chance to cross examine them.
The second meeting of this committee with the new members from the government side lasted for 10 minutes before they adjourned it. They waited until they had eaten the sandwiches. We met at suppertime because that was the only time we had available as busy MPs. They waited until they had filled their faces on the sandwiches and fruit before they adjourned the meeting because they did not want to address the report.
There was one government member who decided they would rewrite the report after the committee got to a fourth draft. The member for Windsor-St. Clair went away and rewrote the whole report without any input from the opposition members on the committee. What a farce.
The government, in order to keep this report from being tabled in the House of Commons, did not even respect their own member. It did not even respect the chair of that committee. The adjournment by his own party members was done without his knowledge. They adjourned our meeting early on three occasions in order not to deal with the issue. They did not even have the courtesy to tell the chairman who was representing the same party, the government party, that they were doing this.
It shows to me the absolute disregard and disrespect the government has for the independent operation of a committee to get down to the real work and to determine whether something is in the best interests of the people of this country.
It is about time the government realized that each one of us is here to give the best that we can, including the government's own members. If they happen to find something that is wrong and that should be brought to the attention of the government, they should be allowed to do that.
I have watched time over time this kind of interference by the government whip. I watched it in the justice committee when we were debating Bill C-41. Two Liberal members had gone through the process, had gotten replacements signed in to show up and sit down and the party whip came in and said: ``No, you are not representing the government. Here are the replacements that we have approved''.
There is total disregard for the process and the rules that are in place so that we as members of Parliament can do the job for the Canadian people in reviewing legislation in committee to make sure the end result is the best possible for the people of Canada.
I would suggest that the government has a long way to go before it is fulfilling its red book promise of giving more independence to committees, of giving more members of Parliament the ability to affect legislation and to help in the creation of legislation.
I am another private member who has a bill that made it through second reading in the House of Commons. Mine passed unanimously two years ago. It is sitting in the justice committee and has been for two years. The Minister of Justice introduced a bill on the same subject two years later. Why did the committee not deal with a private members' bill that was dealing with dangerous offenders and how to keep them off the streets of Canada? Two years ago that was passed unanimously by this House, placed into the committee and totally disregarded.
I would suggest that the tyranny of the majority which one of the Liberal members referred to earlier is precisely what this country has with the present government. Because this government has such a massive majority, it feels it has the right to totally disregard the rights of its own individual members of Parliament to represent the Canadian people in what they feel is right and just.
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Anytime there is a critical review of something which may point out an issue or an area that the government should back away from or reconsider, it is disregarded. Maybe I have misread the position of the member but I thought we were all here to do the best job we can for the Canadian people and to make sure that those who follow us have the best legislation, the best rules to govern the country to make sure that it is a strong, vibrant and unified country in the years to come.
I do not see that our work in committees is allowing us to do that. I have seen interference by the government, not only on opposition members but on government members which is in contravention of the parliamentary system.
If the government wants to return to this House with any majority let alone a mass majority it had better pull up its socks and start listening to the Canadian people because it may not be given another chance.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Madam Speaker, the member made a very good intervention. I am glad she was able to get all of her frustrations out. It is good to be able to express one's frustration at democracy. However, it is a contradiction because one cannot be frustrated with democracy.
The issue here is that a majority government is fully in control of the work and the decisions of the House of Commons by virtue of that majority. The electorate as a whole is going to hold the government fully accountable for the decisions and actions in this place, understanding fully that the opposition parties were not in a position to defeat anything.
The member raised issues about something that happened in the justice committee and talked about our work. I believe her quote was ``our work'' as a collective of the committee, as if the committee does not reflect a microcosm of this place. It is a partisan committee made up of partisan members and team members who represent their party's position. That means notwithstanding that the member has made good points, the ultimate decision is of the committee. The committee is controlled by the governing party with the majority and thereby transposing the responsibility, the government is responsible for each and every decision the committee makes and must be accountable to the people.
If the member feels that the committee's work and the end result of the decisions made and the amendments proposed and the bills supported or not supported were wrong and not in the best interests of Canadians, there will be an opportunity for those members in the next election.
The member should remember that the curse of a majority government is that it is deemed to be in control by all Canadians. It will be held fully accountable and what it does is at its own peril.
Ms. Meredith: Madam Speaker, I find it very interesting to hear a member of the Liberal Party say that the government is fully responsible for the decisions of the committee. In this case the member the government replaced on the committee was recognizing that there was a discrepancy in the information or the testimony of witnesses and questioned and challenged it. Because I had no support from the committee for recognizing there were discrepancies in testimony and that it should be challenged and questioned, I brought it to the House as a point of privilege.
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I will quote from the Speaker in his ruling earlier this week: ``However in my opinion this is a matter for debate and not a question of privilege. The member clearly has a dispute as to the facts presented to the committee. Should the member wish to return to the committee with the matter, and the committee ought to report to the House on this aspect of the question, the House at that time may choose to deal with it''.
The committee refused to even deal with it in the report stage. That is why the member for Scarborough West was kicked off the committee. He recognized that the other members of the committee would not deal with that issue. I would suggest that the government is responsible for the decisions to help cover up.
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask my colleague what she really thinks about the selection of vice-chairs, especially only from the ranks of the separatist, break up the country party.
Ms. Meredith: Madam Speaker, the issue really is the openness, the ability for the members of the committee to choose the person they feel is best able to represent the opposition. I would suggest that there have been times when many of the government members would have liked to have supported a Reform Party member who was presented to them but were told not to.
The day that the Liberal members of these committees are given the freedom, and I mean full freedom, to select who they feel is best able to represent them, we will see some Reform Party members placed in the vice-chair positions.
Mr. George S. Baker (Gander-Grand Falls, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I have just a few points concerning this debate.
What started it was the tabling of this excellent report by our whip, the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, who is doing a fantastic job. He has been one of the best whips I would say in the history of this place. On the list of names of people serving on these committees, months of consultation have gone into preparing this list to make sure that members are on the committees they want to be on if possible.
All of a sudden, the Reform Party stands up in the House, frustrated by its own unpopularity, frustrated because the government is so far ahead in the polls, but mainly frustrated because of the Bloc. Under our system it is the Bloc, the official opposition, which has many of the privileges the Reform Party would like to have.
Here Reformers are today criticizing of all groups to criticize the Government of Canada for this lack of democracy, for this lack of accountability to the House of Commons, to the Canadian people, to this lack of power over the legislative process. There are only two functions of committees in the House of Commons under our system and they are accountability and the legislative function.
Is it not strange that they should be criticizing the very government in the entire history of this place which has allowed free votes not just on private members' bills, but also on government initiatives. If we investigated the mother of Parliaments, the British Parliament, I do not think we would find there such progressive actions as those by the Government of Canada, by the Prime Minister, under the present administration. It is historic. It has never been done before.
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On top of that, with this new found power which has been given to members of Parliament on government bills and private members' bills, we have in this place the best accountability of any legislature under the British parliamentary system. I am referring to question period.
There is no other legislature in the world that has a question period that the ministers, the executive, have to attend to answer whatever questions are posed by the opposition parties- no other legislature in the world.
I will tell the House what we do have in the world. Perhaps the Reform Party would like to have this. Perhaps it would like us to become up to date like the British, the Australians or any other Parliament where one has to give notice of a question to a cabinet minister. The cabinet minister does not even have to be in the House every day. They are only called once every two weeks to come for a day to answer questions in the House, questions for which notice has been given.
Why have we retained this? We have retained this because the Government of Canada, particularly now, is in a situation with a separatist party as the official opposition. The Government of Canada has rejected the many suggestions from the academic community that we go the way the British and the Australians have gone where they have to give notice of every question and the cabinet ministers would not be confined to their places here in this House every day and be answerable to a complete free for all by the opposition parties.
The system we have works only if the accountability of the government is actually accomplished by the two main political parties in opposition, first the power given to the separatist party.
We can imagine why the Reform Party is rather frustrated. We have a system whereby one of the two main players in question period is a separatist party that is only interested in breaking up the country. That is its agenda. It is not interested in anything else. I do not think Bloc members are interested in anything else. When they sleep they dream about it. They plan it day after day: ``What are we going to say in question period to break up the country?'' Obviously that is not working in the best interest of Canada. Then there is the second party.
An hon. member: Extremists.
Mr. Baker: As the hon. member pointed out, this is party of extreme political positions. And so we wonder who the losers are. The losers are the people of Canada.
An hon. member: Give us an example of what is extreme.
Mr. Baker: The hon. member has asked for an example. We can give examples. Imagine a political party with that much power for accountability being opposed to our health care system. Imagine a political party that includes in its position that it wants the public to have roads built by private enterprise and then we would need toll gates. How else? Imagine the Alaska highway. Imagine if there were tolls on the TransCanada highway. This is the party with these very extreme positions on certain things.
An hon. member from the Reform just mentioned unemployment insurance. They had this great plan. Let us talk about the extreme position of being opposed to reducing the premiums for employees and employers, to use the unemployment insurance fund to pay off the deficit, to make sure that everything becomes zero, and then they will reduce the premiums. That is in their policy booklet, page 24 of the budget they presented.
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What we have is the Government of Canada being held accountable to the people of Canada by two political parties that are not representative of the wishes of the Canadian people and therefore cannot really hold the government accountable for their actions. The government holds true to the principles of democracy in the House by giving members of Parliament on the government side a free vote even on matters that are introduced by the Government of Canada.
It is clear the reason the system is not working is the fault of the opposition parties and they only have themselves to blame. They should go back to the drawing board as far as question period is concerned and perhaps come up with some better suggestions rather than hold up all of these excellent committees with these excellent MPs just waiting to do their job as presented by our whip earlier on today.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I am always interested to hear the member from Newfoundland speak.
He spoke of extremism. We have seen extremism in this country for the last 25 years. We have seen the extremism in the fiscal monetary policy that has created a $600 billion debt in this country. We have the extremism result in a $50 billion interest payment each year on that debt. We have seen the extremism of the MP pension plan which is not a pension plan at all but a winning lottery ticket.
We have seen the extremism of section 745 that allows first degree murderers like Clifford Olson to apply for early parole after serving just 15 years and take everyone of those 11 families whose children have been murdered through the horror, pain and the anguish again and again.
We see the extremism of politicians who support those kind of rights and protection for the murderers in this country while ignoring completely the duty and responsibility to protect the innocent victims of the children of those families.
Yes, this country has had to be subjected to extremism, extremism that I have talked about, which we could speak about for hours in this House; extremism of the Young Offenders Act that is considered to be a joke by many of the young offenders them-
selves; a justice system that cannot protect the lives and the property of our citizens. Yes, we have extremism in this country and it is the result of people like my colleague who just addressed us.
We can talk of something the hon. member did not address with a democracy as expressed within our committees. I sat on the justice committee and I saw one of the finest chairman who knew the rules, who was an experienced capable man and who was fair to both the government side as well as the opposition. I saw that hon. member fired from his position simply because he chose to represent what he thought was in the best interests of his people on a government bill.
The hon. member has not addressed that. Perhaps he could address that in the time he has left. What does he think about the hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce being treated in that horrible manner by a so-called democratic process and a government that is supposedly sworn to uphold the democratic principles of this country? Let us hear the hon. member respond to what happened to this hon. member over here.
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Mr. Baker: Madam Speaker, the hon. member has claimed we are a government of extremes. He started his point by talking about the debt and the deficit, of economic extremes, as he called it.
I have to admit this country today is in an extreme position because we are at an extreme, are we not? Which one of the G-7 countries leads the world in economic development? Which country is at the economic extreme? Is it Italy? Is it France? Is it Germany? Is it the U.K.? Is it Japan? Is it the U.S.? What country is at the economic extreme? We agree with the hon. member. The country at the economic extreme is the country of Canada, which leads everybody else.
Mr. Jim Silye (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member, speaking of extremes, which political party's extreme ideas did the government adopt? Which party ran a campaign on cuts and deficit elimination and that cuts lead to jobs, better opportunities and make this country better? Which party ran on jobs, jobs, jobs? Which party has stolen the other party's ideas? We want nothing to do with its ideas and we are glad it is stealing ours, our extreme views, our extreme positions and our extremely valuable contribution we have made to this country.
Mr. Baker: Madam Speaker, the Liberal Party of Canada would never be that extreme. The Liberal Party of Canada, since the fall of 1993, has been the most progressive economically of all of the industrialized nations of the world, and is projected to be that way next year, without adopting the Reform principles of cutting health care, making people pay for their roads and doing away with social programs.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, BQ): Madam Speaker, I can see as you do that the government majority is pleased to hear what I have to say, and I will not be afraid to speak my mind.
The fundamental reality we are faced with here is that we have a democratically elected opposition composed of 53 members who agreed to comply with democratic rules with regard to party fundraising, rules that were rejected by both the Reform Party and the government majority in this House.
We are being told today that our work as parliamentarians, particularly our work in committee, is useless. That is what the Reform members are saying. They are saying that our work as parliamentarians is useless because they are not the official opposition.
That is sheer hypocrisy. You will recall that less than two weeks after we came to this House, the leader of the Reform Party invited us to a luncheon where he told us that his party would have a new image, that we would see a new way of doing politics, that his party would be democratic, that it would enrich debate.
Despite the fact that we have a system where the people have their say, where they can choose their representatives democratically, some members have the gall to tell us today that this system is worthless with regard to committees, because they are not the official opposition. It certainly takes some nerve to rise in this House today and make that kind of comment.
How should we evaluate the work of the opposition? We have a democratic opposition.
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And we are here because we received a mandate. What is that mandate? It was given to us during a democratic electoral campaign held according to public rules. The people of Quebec chose 53, 54 members from the Bloc Quebecois. That is a fact.
What is so painful for the Reform Party members? I hope that one of them will have the courage to stand up and say it instead of their usual hypocritical speech. What counts in democracy is not what you have on your head, but what you have in it and how much
brain power you have that determines whether you should aspire to form the official opposition.
What does the Reform opposition have to say? What do the Reformists say about public finances? And on the foreign affairs policy? And what about human rights? What do they have to say about the big debates of the moment? And about the recognition of the rights of Quebec? They have nothing to say and this is why not only will they not form the official opposition after the next elections, but we will see to it that they are completely wiped out.
I challenge you, Madam Speaker, and any of the Reformers-who are a throwback to bygone days-to give us an example of any occasion where we have been remiss, either with respect to content, policy or ethics, or in connection with attendance in the House, or our use of any of the prerogatives of the official opposition. I challenge them to give us one example.
We know very well that we have done our work properly. We have done it like those who know that, when the official opposition rises in the House, it speaks on behalf of the Quebec people, who made a democratic choice, and who will do so again in order to reach an ideal that we have never concealed, which is to see that, when it so decides, Quebec will be able to attain sovereignty.
But did that mean that, when we had the opportunity, we were not able to honestly and respectfully represent a broad range of Canadians? Yes, we were able to do so. We were able to do so when we spoke about Bosnia. We were able to do so when we spoke about renewing institutions internationally, particulary with respect to the United Nations. We agree that, in specific cases, the Quebec nation may have interests in common with the rest of Canada, but we have never compromised our principles.
Did the Reform Party fight against family trusts? Did you hear them on this issue? Did the Liberals get up and fight when apparently two billion dollars had more or less legally left the country, left Canada? Did they stand up and fight? No.
What bothers both these parties is that we take a unique position. We have something different to say, something specific.
I know both the Reform Party and the government majority wish we could blend in with the rest of Canada. But that will not happen, because we know what Quebecers will do, because they are capable of democratically choosing what is in their own interests. And being guided by their own interests means electing spokespersons exclusively dedicated to promoting the interests of Quebec.
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In the same breath, I hasten to say that each and everyone of us has friends in English Canada, and we believe that the best way to conduct our political business in the next century is in the form of a partnership.
That is what we believe, and we are not naive about the eventuality, the plausibility and the eminently desirable policy of maintaining a Canadian common market. We are not naive in this respect.
I am concerned to say the least that the Reform Party has nothing to say about these issues. To rise in the House with all the naivety and indignation of a convent school girl of 17 and say they are unhappy because in committee they are not the official opposition is an affront to democracy.
Democracy is about being able to elect the people who represent us. Do Reform Party members seriously believe that with this kind of holier than thou attitude, devoid of any common sense, they will win the popular vote? Is that what they believe? I hope not.
[English]
Mr. Strahl: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I know we have to wrap up the debate momentarily as per the motion we passed earlier this morning. Is there going to be an opportunity for questions and answers following this?
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): That is not a point of order.
[Translation]
Mr. Ménard: Madam Speaker, I would like to carry on with my speech.
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): The hon. member for Fraser Valley East.
Mr. Strahl: A point of order, Madam Speaker. I know the normal method of debating here in the House is a statement period, a period of debate-
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): Please sit down. It was agreed that discussions on this motion would end at ten to two. I will give the hon. member an additional minute to complete his 10-minute speech.
Mr. Strahl: Will there be time for questions?
[Translation]
Mr. Ménard: Madam Speaker, here you can see this inability to take a position on issues and the use of tricks to avoid the real debates. This is why these people, at least I hope for the sake of Canadians and Quebecers, will never be the government nor the official opposition.
Here we are, acting in a responsible way, talking about the real problems and ensuring that the voice of Quebec is and continues to be heard. We are all, without exception, very enthusiastic about the future.
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais): It being 1:55 p.m., it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings.
Pursuant to order made earlier today, the motion is deemed to have been put to a vote and agreed to on division.
(Motion agreed to.)
The petitioners therefore call on Parliament to oppose the repeal of section 745 of the Criminal Code or the restriction of prisoners access to just and fair procedures as well as to launch a concerted public education campaign to promote the need for more responsible and humane criminal justice approaches to enhance the safety of all Canadians.
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The petitioners state that there are profound inadequacies in the sentencing practices concerning individuals convicted of impaired driving charges and that Canada must embrace a philosophy of zero tolerance to people who drink and drive.
The petitioners pray and request that Parliament proceed immediately with amendments to the Criminal Code to ensure that the sentence given to anyone convicted of impaired driving causing death carries a minimum sentence of seven years and a maximum of 14 years as outlined in the private member's bill C-201, sponsored by the hon. member for Prince George-Bulkley Valley.
The petitioners from Kirkland Lake, Ontario would like to draw to the attention of the House that managing the family home and caring for preschool children is an honourable profession which has not been recognized for its value to our society.
The petitioners therefore pray and call on Parliament to pursue initiatives to eliminate tax discrimination against families that choose to provide care in the home to preschool children, the chronically ill, the aged or the disabled.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House that the consumption of alcoholic beverages may cause health problems or impair one's ability and specifically that fetal alcohol syndrome or other alcohol related birth defects are 100 per cent preventable by avoiding alcohol consumption during pregnancy.
The petitioners, therefore, pray and call on Parliament to enact legislation to require health warning labels to be placed on the containers of all alcoholic beverages to caution expectant mothers and others of the risks associated with alcohol consumption.
The petitioners call on Parliament to consider the advisability of extending benefits and compensation to veterans of the wartime merchant navy equal to that enjoyed by veterans of Canada's World War II armed services.
My constituents request that Parliament enact Bill C-205, a bill which would amend the Criminal Code and the Copyright Act. Passage of this bill would prohibit a criminal from profiting by selling, authorizing or authoring the story or details of a crime.
The petitioners draw the attention of the House to the fact that this nation is in danger of being torn apart by regional factions. Therefore, they pray that the Prime Minister and the Parliament of Canada declare and confirm immediately that Canada is indivisible.
The first one is from Sun Hope Petitions in memory of Andre Castet. The petitioners would like to draw attention to a great public concern that sexual predators are at large in our streets without public notification.
They feel that Bill C-37 does not address the public's call for substantial revisions of the YOA and they call on the House to enact legislation to reform the justice system and the Corrections and Conditional Release Act addressing a number of principles, primarily that new laws would ensure that sexual predators are kept off the streets and placed in a secure setting until they no long represent a threat to public safety.
I am pleased to present both these petitions.
The Speaker: It would be my intention, immediately after statements and question period, to take up where we left so we can receive all the petitions you want to make today.
It being 2 p.m., we will now go to Statements by Members.