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That the amendment be amended by adding ``and that this House respectfully requests that Their Honours respond to this message no later than June 19, 1997''.I took this subamendment under advisement. The purpose of the subamendment is to add to the amendment already before the House the words already quoted.
First, I would remind the House that when the Senate has amendments to a bill, and these are under consideration in the House, the debate must be strictly related to the amendments. This is specified in citation 742 of Beauchesne's sixth edition.
Second, the purpose of a subamendment is to alter the amendment and not to enlarge the scope of the amendment or to bring in a new element foreign to the amendment. I refer the House to citation 580 of Beauchesne.
As stated in Beauchesne's citation 553, the House can give an order only to itself, to us here. Were this subamendment adopted it would seem an order to the other place.
For all these reasons I rule that the subamendment proposed by the hon. member for Crowfoot is out of order.
Some hon. members: Question.
The Speaker: The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?
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Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Speaker: All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Speaker: Call in the members.
And the bells having rung:
The Speaker: The vote will be deferred until tomorrow at the end of Government Orders.
The Speaker: It is my information that the hon. member for Comox-Alberni has 17 minutes remaining.
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Comox-Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I barely got started on my speech on the fisheries act about two or three weeks ago so I would like to resume. For those watching, if they wish to look back in Hansard, they will get the first part where I was dealing basically with the aboriginal fishery and what Bill C-62 is all about.
This bill is about power: power for the minister and power for the bureaucracy. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans already has all the power and strength it needs to manage the fishery. The difficulty is that my colleague from Delta challenged the minister's authority and right to an aboriginal commercial fishery, not an aboriginal food fishery. Nobody disputes that. It is the right of aboriginals to fish commercially with other fishers not being allowed to fish that is being challenged. There is no equality in the fishery. That is what this bill is about.
Talk about overkill, the bill will extinguish the public right to fish. I have fished in the Alberni Canal for the past 15 years. That has been my right as a Canadian and this bill will overturn that. The only way that I or anyone in this House can go fishing will be with a decree or some kind of ministerial authority and that is absolutely wrong.
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In a nutshell that is what is wrong with DFO. It manages from the top down. I have worked in the industry with the people at the bottom and they are a hard working and dedicated bunch. But it is the top end. As the member for Skeena has often said, why is it that DFO, a couple of blocks from the House of Parliament, has to have an office with 1,000 people? It is a two-hour plane ride to the nearest fish. The problem with DFO is that it is a top down bureaucracy.
This bill would give the minister complete discretion to manage the fishery through ministerial decrees and that is absolutely wrong. As well, within the bill there is absolutely no detail as to how this will be carried out. How are we as members in this House supposed to look at the bill and deal with the bill when there are absolutely no details on how it is going to be enforced? It will all be done through regulations at a later stage.
The Fraser River fishery has almost been eliminated. There has been practically no non-native commercial fishery on the Fraser River and that is this government's action. What happened to the equality of all fishers?
In British Columbia native fishers form 40 per cent of the fishery. They are already well represented in the fishery yet this bill will give them exclusive rights. This is not a slam against native fishers. What this country is about is equality of all Canadians. All Canadians regardless of their origin should have the right to that fishery and the minister wants to overturn that.
This is not just hearsay, it has been shown in the courts and it is law. Only commercial fishers have the right to sell fish. This has been shown in the Van der Peet, the NTC Smokehouse Limited and Gladstone supreme court decisions. The court ruled that aboriginals have no right to an exclusive commercial fishery yet this bill will overturn that. Bill C-62 is the minister's attempt to work his way around the law to give exclusive rights to specific groups which is absolutely wrong.
I do not believe the minister understands the bill, but do his bureaucrats? Absolutely. They are right on. This bill is coming from the bureaucrats, not from the minister. This is a classic example of a minister being run by his own bureaucrats.
This minister has shown his incompetence on the west coast through the lighthouse issue, the coast guard issue and now on the fisheries issue. He does not understand and does not care to look into what is going on on the B.C. coast. He is bungling once again by fundamentally taking away our public right to fish.
Let me quote the Liberal red book: ``Conservation and rebuilding of fish stocks will be the top priority of Liberal fisheries policy, a policy that will also encompass broader ecological and environmental decisions. A Liberal government will implement effective conservation measures immediately, because if remaining stocks are not conserved now, there will be no fisheries industry left on which to build sustainable development''.
One of the very first actions of this new minister was to close down a substantial number of hatcheries on the west coast. Clearly that is not conservation. The government continues to ignore the fact that the fishing industry is in serious danger from declining stocks. There are problems with the Americans mainly in Alaska. We need strict enforcement of the conservation measures.
The Liberal red book states: ``A Liberal government will deal with foreign fishing outside the 200-mile limit and scrutinize foreign quotas within the 200-mile limit''. This has not happened under this minister.
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The west coast fishery is being ignored by this government. British Columbia has 12.9 per cent of the population. We have over 3.8 million people. We are a cash cow to the government and we are tired of being ignored by the government.
Earlier I mentioned issues that the minister has ignored, for example, lighthouses. The former minister and the present minister have taken the people out of the lighthouses. The cost is very small, about $3.5 million.
They say that automated lighthouses will cover the fishers and aircraft but they do not. People are needed to tell them about the fog. A person needs to tell them about the size of the waves. During the last storm in British Columbia a significant number of the automated lighthouses went down. They did not report the weather at a time when the aircraft and the fishers needed that information.
The B.C. coast is one of the most dangerous coasts in the world because of the topography, the weather and the all-round climate. It is not a nice place for flying in the fall or winter, nor for taking fishing vessels through the inlets and coves. We need those lighthouses; we need those people. Yet the government has decided to trim them out at a paltry savings of $3.5 million. But the largesse is fine when the government gives Bombardier $87 million as a gift because it happens to be in Montreal. What happened to east and west? This is what happens to the west coast time and time again.
The same issue arises with the coast guard. The coast guard and the fisheries were amalgamated. A number of bases have been shut down. Search and rescue on the west coast is extremely important. Timing is important. Yet the safety of people on the west coast does not seem to have any effect or impact on the government.
I could go on at length on what the government has not done for the west coast.
This bill is significant to all Canadians. The public right to fish is a right which we have had in common law since Confederation, yet the minister and the government want to extinguish it. They want to
put the right to fish under ministerial decree. That is absolutely wrong. It is a signal of where the government is going.
In conclusion, Bill C-62 only deals with the government's official problems. It does nothing else. It does not deal with the issues. There is no reason to support it. Therefore, I move:
That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word ``That'' and substituting the following therefor:
``Bill C-62, an act respecting fisheries, be not now read a second time, but that the order be discharged, the bill withdrawn and the subject matter thereof referred to the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans''.The Speaker: The amendment is in order. The debate will now be on the amendment.
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Before I give the floor to the hon. member for Labrador on debate, I will go to questions and comments.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Gaspé, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened to the speech given by my Reform colleague. You will allow me to make a comment instead of asking a question. My colleague may have lost his momentum since he started his speech before the parliamentary break and finished it just now.
I would like to remind the members and the ministers present, and all those who are listening, about the irritants that Bloc Quebecois members mentioned during their speeches-and we will have the opportunity to repeat them-so that we can relate these irritants to the amendment proposed by the Reform Party and really understand what is happening here this afternoon.
The main point which annoyed the Bloc in this bill was clause 17, the provision on management agreements. My honourable colleague also mentioned these agreements. Thanks to his discretionary power, the minister can decide who will be party to an agreement. He can chose whoever he wants.
What I understood from my colleague's speech is that he criticizes the repeal of a privilege that until now all Canadians could enjoy, provided they lived close enough to a lake or river, of course, that is the privilege to fish.
I think the issue of fisheries management agreements is worth a closer look. I also think that, before we proceed any further, the minister should go back to his drawing board. I must also remind the House, as I think my colleague did, that we are dealing with the bill of the century, which proposes the merging of four existing acts, some of which are as old as the Canadian Constitution itself. It is very important that we do a good job because it could be another 100 years before this legislation is reviewed.
The other point I would like to stress concerns the delegation of powers to the provinces. There are clauses in this bill that allow or indicate delegations of powers, specially with regard to fishing licences and the environment.
I am not sure that both sides of the House agree on the extent of the powers being delegated. With regard to the intent of the bill, when the Minister, in Part I, deals with the delegation of powers relating to fishing licences, I think this is both inadequate and contradictory.
Clause 9, I think, provides that a provincial Minister of Fisheries may, by delegation, issue licences. But clause 17 provides that the Minister has the discretionary power to decide who will receive the various licenses. I think this is contradictory.
I say it is inadequate because provinces, including British Columbia and Quebec, are asking for more powers. When we talk about delegating powers with regard to fisheries, we do not mean only the authority to issue licences. For the sake of consistency, fisheries management must include control over fishery officers and the allocation of resources among communities, which is very important.
This fall, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has been taken to task. The department lost a court case on its handling of the delegation of powers and the establishment of fisheries boards. Part III of the bill provides for the establishment of quasi-judicial tribunals to deal with issues and administrative sanctions relating to fishing licences.
Once again, allowing the Minister to use his discretionary power to appoint fisheries judges for a period of three years is no way to improve the situation. I do not see any difference with current procedures, under which sanctions are imposed by Fisheries and Oceans regional directors.
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Those appointed will be in the minister's pay. Their mandate will last only three years. I think Quebecers and Canadians alike deserve a justice system that is much bigger, tighter, and above all more professional and politically neutral.
I will conclude with a question to my colleague. I will try to make it short. My colleague moved that the bill be not read a second time but sent back to the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. I would like him to examine the matter more carefully, because I understand there is still a lot of work to be done, and I will let him conclude this debate. Later this afternoon, I will get another chance to comment on this issue.
[English]
Mr. Gilmour: The member is absolutely correct, Mr. Speaker. That is the reason for my motion, to take it back to the committee
so the committee can examine it. This has been charged through far too quickly. The public right to fish, as the member says, is a 100 year old law. This is absolutely right.
It is this type of statement that puts people on the west coast in the frame of mind of saying: ``Why does B.C. not take over the fishery? Obviously Ottawa does not care about it''. It is this type of legislation that is fueling that sentiment. The member is correct. We want to take it back to the fisheries and oceans committee and deal with a number of these major concerns, call witnesses and deal with it in detail.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernier: Mr. Speaker, I will take the two minutes remaining. I appreciate that the Liberal member for Labrador is impatient to make his speech on this subject but I would also like to have other Liberal members take part in the debate. I would like them to take the floor this afternoon and tell us why we should rush through an act which is supposed to be the act of the century, while Reform members are saying we should go back to the drawing board.
I believe that Reform members are right and I think it is up to the Liberals to convince us this afternoon.
[English]
Mr. Lawrence D. O'Brien (Labrador, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to have the honour to speak in the House of Commons. It is my first time speaking during a debate. While it is a bill about fisheries, I will speak to some degree to the fishery but as this will also be my maiden speech, I will be injecting some other discussions and comments.
I am pleased to support Bill C-62, the new fisheries act, which is long overdue. It is the first major rewrite of this act since 1868. Bill C-62 will make it possible for governments to work together with stakeholders to build the fishery of the future. If we have the will, together we can create an industry that is self-reliant and economically viable, an industry that will provide good incomes for both the large and small fishing enterprises.
Canada's fishery resource is the mainstay of hundreds of coastal communities. I have 24 communities in my riding spread along the coast of Labrador from L'Anse-au-Clair in the south to Nain in the north. That is a coastline of 600 miles or so. We all know how stock declines have devastated many of these communities economically. We are working to rebuild those stocks. We must also ensure that the stocks on both coasts do not suffer a similar fate.
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It is my privilege and honour to talk about the relevant issues that tie in with the fishery and other developments in Labrador.
First, I would like to tell the House that I am the first elected native born Labrador person in the House of Commons. I was born in a small community on the coast of Labrador in a place called L'Anse-au-Loup. Its population is about 600. I grew up there and then I went to Memorial University in St. John's. I went back to Labrador and taught school. Fifteen years ago I moved into Goose Bay and launched a municipal political career. Thanks to the support from the good people of Labrador I want to do my very best to represent their needs here in the House of Commons.
Labrador is a big land. It consists of 300,000 square kilometres. It has 1,000 miles of coastline. There are 24 communities along the coast of Labrador. There are four communities in central Labrador, the Goose Bay area, Sheshatshit, North West River and Mud Lake. It has the mighty Churchill Falls, which have been so hotly debated. Western Labrador is the mining capital of iron ore in Canada, located in Labrador City and Wabush.
I am indeed very proud to represent these 33,000 or 34,000 souls, representing a voting population of about 18,000.
Labrador is very distinct. It has very diverse and distinct cultures. There is the Innu population of Sheshatshit and Davis Inlet. My colleague who is in the House was in Davis Inlet with me last week, as well as the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs. We signed an agreement to provide a better future for the people of Davis Inlet.
In addition to the Innu culture is the Inuit culture. The Labrador Inuit Association is their parent body. They are doing very well in moving along on land claims. Also the Metis people live on the south coast and in central Labrador.
We have the settlers who moved in from Europe and other places. In Goose Bay we have ancestors from Germany, Britain and Holland, as well as many other cultures. It is a very diverse land, a very big land and a great challenge for its member of Parliament to represent. I feel very honoured and very comfortable. Indeed, I feel poised to continue to serve the needs of the people.
I also want to thank my colleagues in the House. The Prime Minister made a personal visit to Labrador last summer. The Minister of Transport came with me and spent eight days performing official duties in Labrador. I want to thank my other colleagues who have travelled with me through Labrador and who continue to travel with me.
The natural resources committee went to Labrador last week to hear 12 presentations. I met with that committee again today and they were very struck and incensed by some of the comments they heard from the richest of people, in terms of economies in the west to some degree, and from the poorest of people. The extremities of life are found along 20 kilometres of the Labrador coastline. They include sectors related to the mining industry and so on.
I would encourage my colleagues to visit Labrador with me and to share the cultures and the great surroundings. It is a rural frontier riding. It is basically unknown in this House to a large number of people. I am up to the occasion. I welcome all my colleagues, as I have welcomed them in the past.
It is important to the people of Labrador to have members of Parliament visit. It is important to this House to share the great knowledge and wealth of understanding which Labrador has. I am going to carry forward the issues of the people of Labrador. I am one spoke in a wheel of 295, so I need support. I will go forward and generate that support in the way I have just outlined.
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Many of my colleagues, if not all of them, who have travelled to Labrador in the past, have shown interest in coming back in one capacity or another, with family, friends, to do some fishing, to tour around, to look at the historic sites or whatever the case might be. That speaks well of Labrador. We have a lot to offer and I think the rest of Canada must know that. I plan to make sure they know it. Mr. Speaker, you have heard me and will continue to hear me in caucus, in this House and around Parliament Hill supporting and taking pride in my riding.
In promoting Labrador I want to mention that I speak often about the trans-Labrador highway. I spoke today on the trans-Labrador highway. I will be speaking again in the late show, in the four minutes allotted, one of these evenings. I speak often in the Atlantic caucus and the national Liberal caucus on it. I try to promote it wherever I can and I will continue to promote it. It is a must that the road become a reality in Labrador: a trans-Labrador highway through Quebec, through Baie Comeau into Fermont, Labrador City, Wabush, Churchill Falls, Goose Bay, down to the coast of Labrador and on into Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and P.E.I. That circular route is a must.
It is my task to make sure that my colleagues understand that issue and at some point in the near future it becomes a fast track reality. It is a must. It is my number one priority. I will not settle, slow down or take a back seat to anything but promoting that highway and making it a reality.
I mentioned the fishery in my initial remarks. I want to mention it again. As I stated, I am a member of the fisheries committee. I am honoured to say that I come from a very strong fishery riding. Off the coast of Labrador there are 17 shrimp licences which are shared among the Atlantic provinces. The people of Labrador get three and a half of those licences. We like sharing with people. We like sharing with our colleagues. These licences are worth $180 million annually to the economy.
In addition to that, we have thousands of tonnes of turbot, scallops, crab and God knows how many seals. There are millions of seals. One of these days we are going to come to our senses and realize what they are doing to the ecosystem of the North Atlantic and deal with that in the true context.
The point I am making is that the resources are there. I am proud to say that the minister of fisheries, his colleagues and his staff are working with me to put together a plan whereby the people on the coast of Labrador can further benefit from the fishery, so we can keep our plants open and the workers can go on to have sustainable incomes.
Our people do not want to be on employment insurance or anything like that. They want sustainable incomes and a sustainable economy. We have the resources. It is a matter of how they are managed. Management, development and working in conjunction with the minister of fisheries and the government, I know that Labrador will have a much more successful future than it is currently encountering.
In the fishery we also have the Atlantic salmon issue which is an ongoing debate and one which the conservationists say we have to close down and so on. It is an ongoing debate. I am very pleased that the hon. minister of fisheries has seen fit, based on discussions with me and the people in my riding, to put together a task force to look at the implications of the salmon fishery. Hopefully we can rationalize this issue and come to some common understanding for the betterment of all concerned.
I want to mention the Department of National Defence as well. Goose Bay is the low level flying capital of Canada. The German air force, the Dutch air force, the Royal air force from Britain and of course the Canadian air force fly out of Goose Bay doing advance low level flights.
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The allied countries of Europe are contributing in excess of $100 million a year to our economy. It is basically the mainstay of the economy of Goose Bay and the surrounding area. We want to make sure that we keep that economy and we forge ahead and develop that industry whereby it will be on the positive side for Canada, Labrador and for the people of Happy Valley, Goose Bay. With the onslaught of Voisey's Bay in my riding, Goose Bay will benefit as well as Labrador City, Wabush and other coastal communities.
We have a very good future. It is a matter of how it is managed, how it is looked at by leaders, organizers and planners, how it works with government perspectives relative to provincial, municipal and federal governments and the economic giants of the world like Inco.
My colleague from Nickel Belt and I are planning a business partnership exchange. We hope to exchange business views that
have taken years to accomplish in Sudbury with our friends, my supporters, voters in the good riding of Labrador. I think it will benefit Sudbury, Nickel Belt, Labrador and all of us generally. That is why this country is so grand, so great and why we can do things to help each other.
On a further point with regard to the smelter at Voisey's Bay, the people of Labrador are currently experiencing a number of unanswered questions vis-à-vis smelters, mines, mills et cetera. As the days move along I think in the next few weeks some answers will become evident. I hope and pray that the corporate giants such as Inco and Voisey's Bay Nickel will be making decisions bearing in mind the importance of the question of adjacency and how it applies to the social and economic fabric of the people I represent in my riding.
At the end of the day we will come out of this happy, partners, and maybe we can all do better in sharing our great resources.
I am particularly concerned with the people who are on welfare, untrained or who need literacy training. I am interested in looking at the youth. I see the pages in this House and they are looking forward to university and a new career. The people in my riding are no different. We need something to come back to. Too many people are leaving Labrador because there are no jobs. It is a shame we do not have jobs when we have so many great resources, so many great developments, and we wonder why we cannot continue. I know the people will be trained. I know Voisey's Bay Nickel, the good institutions of Labrador, the province and Canada generally will provide for the youth. They will be back and they will be happy and we will sustain a great Labrador into the future.
I want to mention a few other points. The environment is extremely important. We need sustainable development and it has to be environmentally friendly because we have a very pristine environment in Labrador. Without a good environment no one gains.
I want to reiterate my support for the land claims process that is currently under way by the Labrador Inuit Association and the impending claim for the Labrador Metis Association.
I would be remiss if I did not mention Churchill Falls as it relates to the ongoing discussions nationally. I support the discussions currently under way by the premiers as they relate to contracts. We have to honour the legal jargon relating to the signing of deals and so on. I do feel that we need to benefit from Churchill Falls, the upper Churchill. I think we can also develop the lower Churchill and other hydro generation in Labrador; 5,000 megawatts have been developed and I think there are another 4,000 or 5,000 available. I am sure that in due course we will proceed along these lines.
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The Labrador west situation, IOC, Wabush mines, Quebec North Shore and Labrador Railway are great boosts to the economy. As I said, it is the iron ore capital of Canada.
When there are situations where 65 per cent of the railway is in Labrador and 100 per cent of the ore coming out of Labrador and of the 140 jobs only 10 are people from Labrador, I have reason to be concerned.
These are the kinds of inequities that I have to address and work with the corporate giants of the iron ore companies, Inco and all the others in the world, to make sure there is some balance in their thinking, some balance in their training, some balance in the planning and in their priorities so that the people of Labrador and the people of the rest of Canada will all benefit without too much frustration.
In retrospect, the mood in Labrador is to forge ahead in terms of socioeconomic, culture, training, education of our youth and various other things. Certainly infrastructure is a priority. I would be remiss if I did not mention that while health care is a provincial matter, we are in critical need of a major health facility in Labrador. It was nice to hear the vice-president of public affairs for Inco mention the need for a health care facility for Goose Bay. In all probability Goose Bay will be a staging point for the mine and mill in Voisey's Bay. I found that very encouraging. We will get on with the issues and forge ahead with the province and the federal government to make sure we get our fair share.
We in Labrador are not looking for anything more than is reasonable. Labrador has been a great contributor to the Canadian economy and will continue to be a great contributor to the Canadian economy. With the support of my colleagues from both sides of the House we can work this through the various departments and cabinet. We can come to some rational decisions affecting Labrador to the benefit of Canadians.
I have a couple of concluding comments. I would be remiss if I did not mention that I heard the Prime Minister announce that there will be parks in northern Canada, Yukon and the Northwest Territories. We have a great potential for parks, to which my colleague for London-Middlesex can attest. One is the Torngat Mountains north of Nain and the other is in the Mealy Mountains just south of Goose Bay.
It is my hope that some day soon by working with my colleagues collectively we will be able to make an announcement that Labrador has its first national park. It is very important to Canadians and to the culture of Labrador, the pristine areas, to develop at least one national park as soon as possible. Tying in with that would be other national historic sites like the site of Hebron, Hopedale, down the coast in Battle Harbour and Red Bay. We have
some fabulous areas which I want to make sure are brought into their proper perspective.
In conclusion, I appreciate the opportunity to speak here today. I feel very comfortable working in the House and with all colleagues from all parties.
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I take support wherever it comes from but I take advice as well.
Mr. Bernier (Gaspé): What about the Gaspé coast?
Mr. O'Brien (Labrador): Yes, we are good to the Gaspé coast. There is no question about that. It has a good turbot quota and so on. I do look forward to the member's support.
However, the important point is that we collectively bring ourselves together and understand each other. I am new to this game but I am learning. Yes, I do take advice from 20 year veterans and 25 year veterans and so on. By doing that, I am making some progress. I am looking forward to continuing.
With the kind of support I have received to this date and the support coming from Labrador and from around the House, I think it is going to be very interesting. I believe Labrador will benefit from my stay here in Ottawa.
The Speaker: My colleague, you join the ranks of close to 4,000 of us in this House of Commons. Your maiden speech is a rite of passage. Usually when we have maiden speeches we get a free ride. No one heckles you and surely the Speaker does not intervene in any way. I know that in the years to come all of the very small things that will have to be improved on in whichever way you choose to deliver your speeches will be improved on.
However, for today I bid you welcome into the fraternity and sorority of parliamentarians. You are one of close to 4,000 now and you are welcome here.
Pursuant to Standing Order 78(3), I give notice that a crown minister will move, at the next sitting of the House, that a specific number of days or hours be allotted to the further consideration of this stage of the bill and to the required decisions for its disposal at this stage.
Some hon. members: Shame.
The Deputy Speaker: The member for Labrador may have to take questions or comments. I think it is normally understood that we do not ask questions or make comments after a member's maiden speech. However, it is my duty to ask members if they want to interfere with his maiden speech in that way.
[Translation]
Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Mr. Speaker, first of all, on behalf of the Bloc Quebecois, I also want to welcome the hon. member for Labrador, who has been here for some time already, and to congratulate him on his maiden speech. I wish him a long political career, since he said that he would never throw in the towel as long as he is in this House. As he may be here for a very long time, I urge him to grin and bear it and to keep putting pressure on the government. Again, we will see if the riding gets more when they are in power. The issue raised by the hon. member is also of concern to my constituents.
First of all, I want to tell the hon. member for Labrador that I am the member for Charlevoix and that I live in Baie-Comeau. Baie-Comeau is the gateway to the north through highway 389, which goes up to Manic 5. Under the last Conservative government, work was done on a link between Manic 5 and Fermont, which covers much of the access to the north.
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The problem in Labrador is one of road infrastructure. The hon. member for Labrador can be assured of my cooperation and that of the hon. member for Manicouagan in ensuring the development of the whole North Shore region by developing the resources of Labrador.
As we know, Labrador has fish, wood, iron and nickel. It also has the big hydro-electric power station at Churchill Falls. We know that Labrador has problems exporting and processing nickel.
I want to assure the hon. member for Labrador of our full co-operation and wish him a long, effective career, because if he can get a highway for Labrador, it will also benefit Charlevoix, especially the area around Baie-Comeau.
[English]
Mr. O'Brien (Labrador): Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer if I may.
I thank my hon. colleague. It speaks well, which is the point I was making. We all need each other. The economy of Quebec benefits. The people of Quebec benefit with this trans-Labrador highway. Call it northern gulf route, call it what you want.
I look forward to working with all members who have a stake in this. I thank the member very much. Perhaps at a future date we can have a discussion on this. We can put our cards all in the right line so we can get on and make this a reality.
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew (Secretary of State (Training and Youth), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I too would like to congratulate the hon. member on his maiden speech which was very informative and very enjoyable I am sure for all the people across Canada.
I was particularly pleased to hear about the various initiatives that involve his riding, for example, the highway he spoke about. We also have a need for a primary highway. In our case it is up the Mackenzie valley. We are working on that as well.
He spoke about Voisey's Bay. We just announced the first diamond mine in North America. I am sure a similar process will ensue in his riding. There is so much commonality between our regions although we are in two different parts of the country, thousands and thousands of miles apart.
He also mentioned youth which is my responsibility. What could the government do better for young people in Labrador?
Mr. O'Brien (Labrador): Mr. Speaker, I am starting to feel like I am a minister now. To have a question asked of me by the minister is indeed an honour. It is a very good question.
My background is teaching. I spent nine years teaching and I am very close to youth. I go into the schools quite often to discuss the Chamber make-up et cetera.
Last week in Goose Bay during the hearings for the natural resources committee we heard quite a few views, particularly in relation to youth. The strongest point was that it is very difficult to transport people from Hopedale, Labrador, an Inuit community near Davis Inlet, and the people from Nain thousands of miles away for training.
These people have cultural ties. It is slightly different in our white society. They are asking us to identify the kinds of things they can do, to identify the areas of work in mines, parks and so on that they can do. They are asking us to do whatever we can to bring the training to them rather than them to the training. Maybe we can work together on some of that.
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[Translation]
Mr. Gilbert Fillion (Chicoutimi, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this bill that was introduced by the fisheries minister. First of all, I must say that, with this bill, the federal government is not taking any action to ensure that, in the future, fishing will be done in a responsible way, that is, in a profitable and sustainable way, from viewpoint of both the environment and of industry workers.
To me, this bill represents one of the worst to be introduced in the House since our election. Yet, it should be the bill of the century. It combines several acts, some of which have existed since 1867. It is one of the worst bills I have seen, because it does not take into account the industry itself. Also, it does not take into account those who work in it and, particularly, those who depend on it.
Did this bill try to do anything to solve the problems of overcapacity? Absolutely not. Was there any attempt to solve the problem of industry revenues, of the industry's viability? Absolutely not. Dis this bill try to do anything to solve the problem of over-regulation? No.
Furthermore, this bill does not take into account Quebec's demands with regard to fisheries. Thus, this bill has the same characteristics as many others, that is, that the federal government keeps on acting unilaterally and maintains its centralizing perspective, which the Bloc Quebecois has always rejected. This is also unacceptable to the stakeholders in the industry.
The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans has obviously learned well, and learned fast. I must admit that his predecessor was rather good when it came to federal paternalism. Notwithstanding his role in the now famous October 1995 demonstration of love, his predecessor never showed Quebecers he was aware of their needs and concerns regarding the fisheries industry.
While this bill establishes a regime for the conservation and management of fisheries, the minister's priority is to issue fisheries management guidelines. Does the minister realize that, before issuing such guidelines, he should have asked himself what the fishing industry is like in Quebec and Canada?
We all know about the current depletion of fish stocks. In fact, this depletion led to a moratorium on Atlantic groundfish. On the west coast, major steps had to be taken to ensure a degree of control over stocks. This goes to show there is indeed a serious problem. Will this bill solve this problem?
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Let us see how the minister intends to go about it. As far as he is concerned, stock management simply does not exist. There is no mention, anywhere in this bill, of this important concept which is, I might say, vitally important to the fishing industry.
There are a number of questions, important questions, that the minister should have asked himself, questions like the following: Who will the fishers authorized to harvest the resource be? Should fishing become a profession, with a limit to the number of fishers? What types of vessels should fishers use? This bill does not answer any of these basic questions.
Is the minister blind? Does he have a vision for the future of this industry? There is no hint of that in here. This bill will put in place a regime for the conservation and management of fisheries. It provides the minister with new powers. If the bill is passed, the minister will be authorized to enter into agreements with fishers' associations or organizations.
These agreements could have a serious impact. There could be agreements on harvest limits and conservation measures for instance. How many licences will be issued and how much will they cost? What will the responsibilities and funding measures applicable to fisheries management be? To all these questions, the minister does not provide an answer.
The agreements could also state that fishers are required to contribute to biological research. As if it was not bad enough that they have to pay to have the right to fish, they could also have to pay for research. Now I have heard it all.
The government will go so far as to provide guidelines regarding the decision to be made in case of major violations of the act. But who will be part of this group of fishers? We cannot find out. There are no guidelines on this issue. With whom will the minister negotiate? Let us not be fooled. We know very well that the minister himself will decide who will sit at the negotiation table. He will invite his friends, of course, and should the minister not agree with those sitting at the table, who will form the group of fishers? The minister will have full authority to renege on his word.
The fishing industry needs clear and precise answers. It has been plagued by uncertainty for too long to now be presented with solutions such as those proposed in Bill C-62. This industry, and a large proportion of those who live off it, has had to put up with unstable and inadequate revenues for too long. Is this what the minister wants to offer to these people?
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In Quebec, we feel the fishing industry is one that must be looked after. We feel it is one of the economy's engines. Consequently, our approach is totally different from that of the federal fisheries minister. The Quebec government's official position on fisheries is the one that was stated at the 1994 conference of fisheries ministers, in Victoria.
Quebec then publicly asked the federal government to give to the province full authority over fisheries management. Quebec wants to take full responsibility for the stocks fished by its residents. It is of course understood that any transfer of responsibility should be accompanied by a transfer of the budget set aside for this purpose.
Quebec wants its fair share of fish stocks taken by residents of more than one province. Let us consider how the industry in Quebec sees this share. I would like to point out at this point that Quebec's position was unanimous, including the government and all partners who took part in the forum on Quebec maritime fisheries.
The industry in Quebec believes it is essential to get out of the traditional pattern of interprovincial competition and concentrate on joint management of a renewable resource. A quota would be applied to the available volume of a particular species and would determine how the industry would manage that species.
If this mechanism is applied to all species, it will determine the resources available to each province. This will put an end to provincial bickering. There will be no more lobbying to appropriate a greater share of traditional resources.
Professional fishers would then enjoy stable access to their resources and feel more secure in the major investments they must make in this industry. Once their share is established, the industry and governments, federal and provincial, would be able to concentrate their efforts on developing this sector on a sound basis.
The entire industry stands to gain. When we know what we are entitled to and what is available, we are in a better position to manage the resource and subsequent processing. The minister is aware of the Quebec government's position in this respect. He was advised of this position in September by the Quebec Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
Once again, the federal government is encroaching on Quebec's jurisdiction. We see duplication in matters such as the conservation and protection of fish habitat and pollution prevention. In case the minister did not know, Quebec has happens to have a Minister of the Environment and Wildlife. He is responsible for the protection and use of the aquatic environment and the resources found therein.
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Quebec has jurisdiction over civil rights, private property, municipal authorities, physical planning and resource management, and this includes any matter of a local or private nature. It is therefore up to Quebec to take the responsibility for managing the aquatic environment and to take all necessary steps to protect it, to ensure the quality of that environment and to conserve its resources.
So what is the federal government doing here? Why more duplication? This is unacceptable federal encroachment. Since
1993, we have said repeatedly in this House that this government is increasingly encroaching on the jurisdiction of the provinces.
This government must absolutely allow the provinces to decide if they rather be subject to federal standards or to their own. Quebec has asked not to be subject to federal standards. The minister must reconsider and respect Quebec's wishes, thus preventing costly duplication.
I would like to draw attention to the new structure imposed under Bill C-62. This bill provides for the establishment of fisheries tribunals. The members of these tribunals could be appointed by the government for three year terms, and then be reappointed. As if the government had run out of places in the current structure to appoint its friends, it is now creating fisheries tribunals. This way, the minister retains complete control over the sentences handed out by these tribunals. We know full well that those who are appointed by the government must toe the government line.
Does the industry agree with the proposed creation of fisheries tribunals? No, it does not. Those involved do not want to answer to an administrative tribunal. We have magistrates in Quebec and Canada. Our judicial system is very efficient. The people in the fisheries industry want to be treated like any other citizen, they want to be tried by the judicial system in place, not some new structure.
The minister must abandon his plans to establish fisheries tribunals and go back to the drawing board as soon as possible. He must review his bill. He must listen to what the industry has to say. He must also take into account Quebec's demands, and ensure that his bill meets the needs of those who depend on the fisheries.
The fisheries industry is too important an industry, in Quebec as well as in Canada, to have a bill imposed on it that does not meet the needs of those who depend on it. It is therefore imperative that the minister go back to the drawing board.
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[English]
Mrs. Jean Payne (St. John's West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I was listening intently to the hon. member's comment.
I want to say that this bill is the first rewrite of the act since 1868. All across Canada we have seen the need for stabilization in this industry. There is a very great need. The member spoke of stabilization of income and I agree with him. I think there needs to be a stabilization of income. But this will happen only if there is a professionalization of the industry. This is exactly what the bill intends to do.
I am making more of a comment than asking a question. I think the time has come for greater professionalization of this industry and for there to be some stability in the harvesting methods. That can happen only through a better quota system.
I would like to ask the hon.member to comment on how he would provide for stabilization and professionalization of both the industry and income.
[Translation]
Mr. Fillion: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her comment, which reflects what members of the industry want, that is to make theirs a professional industry.
However, the bill before us is silent on these issues. It is merely a merging of several existing acts. It maintains the status quo. What is new in this legislation? For example, does it say anything about how to make the industry viable and profitable? Does it say that the government is prepared to protect the investments made by fishers to develop their industry? The answer is no. This bill is general in nature, except for the fact that it gives the minister more and more power over the various organizations.
We know that, the more the minister consults these organizations, the less he follows up on what people are asking him. The same thing happened with other bills. Therefore, the problem will not be solved with a minister like this one, who does not give a hoot about the consultations he holds all over the country. The minister made a lot of people come to meet him and to make representations. What was the result of this whole exercise in the proposed bill? Nothing. A big zero.
For example, did the minister streamline regulations to help members of the industry adjust more easily? No, nothing was done in this regard. What about the issue of excess capacity? There is absolutely nothing on this either. Again, the minister has a short-sighted vision of what is going on in this industry. He does not realize that, if the bill is passed by this House, it will apply for many years to come and fishers will have to do without any improvement. The result is that the industry will once again experience total chaos.
The minister must review his position, and I hope many Liberal caucus members will inform him of their intentions and get their message across.
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Gaspé, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have a few comments for my colleague. First of all, I would like to congratulate him. For a member from Chicoutimi, even if people say fishing is not that good up there, I believe some people like to troll for redfish and go ice fishing in the winter.
But what I find so surprising is that the hon. member took the time to do his homework and to read the fisheries bill.
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Now let me explain. People from Chicoutimi are not as familiar with the sea as the hon. member for Newfoundland or I myself might be, but he understands the problem perfectly.
Before I put a question to the hon. member for Chicoutimi, I would like to elaborate on the comment made by the hon. member for Newfoundland. I must say it is very apt, and because this lady replaced the former Minister of Fisheries, Mr. John Crosbie, I suppose I can expect her to know something about the fisheries as well.
She pointed out that the fisheries industry was keen on professionalization. I want to make sure I understood correctly. I imagine she will have a chance to make her speech this afternoon.
When the first moratorium was established, Newfoundlanders referred to this as an act of God, and claims for financial assistance were the order of the day. When the second moratorium was proposed, again by a Minister of Fisheries from Newfoundland, but this time flying the Liberal colours, and I am referring to Mr. Tobin, the minister said that before the fisheries resume, it would be necessary to rationalize, by either reducing the number of fishers or their quotas.
The hon. member for Chicoutimi touched on this in his speech. Where are the government's measures for rationalization? The fishers said that one way to achieve rationalization would be to professionalize the industry. Where are the criteria for a professional fisher?
There is nothing in the bill. The minister should provide guidelines. He should tell us what his strategy is. But no, nothing, despite invitations to do so from other governments.
The hon. member for Newfoundland should tell us later on in her speech what the professionalization of fishers should entail. I wish she would mention this later on.
As for questions and comments on the speech made by my colleague from Chicoutimi, he mentioned initiatives by British Columbia and Quebec and that he would like to see a study, a breakdown of resources. I wish he would tell us more about this, because I think he hit on the right word, referring to the situation as total chaos.
Before starting up the fisheries again, it is useful to discuss how much we intend to catch. For the benefit of the House, I may point out that nearly 75 per cent of fish species now being caught in the Gulf of St. Lawrence or which were being caught before the moratoriums were already subject to individual quotas. These were referred to as enterprise allocations, and in some cases were transferable. That is also a management tool.
Nowhere in the bill does the minister provide any guidelines. Nowhere. One wonders what is going on here. We are entitled to an explanation from the minister. And if he cannot give us one, he should let someone else do his job.
Mr. Fillion: Mr. Speaker, as regards the first part of the statement made by my colleague from Gaspé, I would like to inform the members of this House that, despite everything that happened in July in the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean region, if the minister decides in the coming hours to take a real stand on ice fishing in the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean region, because the flooding caused river banks to shift, this activity cannot continue without the permission of the minister of fisheries. I therefore invite the hon. members of this House to come and visit us and take part in this winter activity, thus giving the region a much needed boost in light of everything it went through. We are therefore promoting winter tourism.
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As for his comment on the bill itself, I would simply like to say there are three problems the bill does not resolve. It maintains the status quo as regards the problem of overcapacity. Only the industry and the provinces concerned can decide what quotas the industry can absorb and the resource can tolerate. This must be decided not by federal standards and in high places, but by those who are close to the people earning their living from it.
To my way of thinking, this bill represents the status quo. The Bloc Quebecois wants to encourage the growth of a more independent and cost effective fishing industry-which is important for the people living off this resource-and especially one that is free of the many subsidies, which do not please everyone. We want to get rid of this sort of thing.
People want to work, they want to earn a living from this resource. They want to develop it into something that is cost effective. So let us give these investors-small or big-all the means they need to draw reasonable incomes from this industry.
I am sure, as it is a regular occurrence, that we will not be seeing people exerting pressure on the ministers any more in an attempt to remedy things. Why not correct everything when we have the opportunity? We could do it, if the current minister of fisheries went back to the drawing board.
The Deputy Speaker: My dear colleagues, it is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Cumberland-Colchester-employment insurance; the hon. member for Châteauguay-National Defence; the hon. member for Davenport-Pesticides Products Control Act.
[English]
Mr. Harbance Singh Dhaliwal (Vancouver South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for St. John's West.
I listened intently to my colleagues from the Bloc. Many of us in the House have heard them say on every issue that no matter whether it makes good sense or common sense, they would have us turn everything over to Quebec.
The member, although he spoke very passionately and articulated his views very well, should understand that fish do not respect boundaries. They do not understand jurisdictions. Fish swim between international boundaries and they swim between provincial jurisdictions. For the member to stand up and say that we should turn everything over to Quebec, he is not understanding the fundamentals of what fisheries is all about.
I am pleased to speak on this new fisheries bill. As someone who served as a parliamentary secretary to Brian Tobin, the former Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, I have learned a little bit about the fishing industry. I probably have a lot more to learn about it because it is a very complicated area.
Before I took over the position of parliamentary secretary, I think I had two experiences in the fishery, going out to fish. Both times I was not able to catch any fish, so my friend did not invite me any more to go fishing with him because he figured that I was not good luck for him.
This is a very important bill. I know that my colleagues in the Reform Party think it is very important. That is why they are listening very intently. I am sure they know that I have some very interesting things to say.
This fisheries bill is long overdue. As has been stated earlier in this House, since 1868 the act has not been reviewed in a comprehensive way. The area I want to concentrate on is habitat, which is very important, but before I get into that I want to make some general comments.
This bill modernizes and updates the Fisheries Act. Members of the House should be saying that this should have been done a long time ago and not complain about how it fails to deliver. In fact it does deliver on some of the fundamentals of the fisheries, which is to have a fishery of the future, a fishery which is environmentally sustainable, a fishery which is economically viable and a fishery which reflects a commitment to the coastal communities.
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This new fisheries bill is about building partnerships. I know many members in the House, including both opposition parties, the Reform and the Bloc, have talked about partnerships and how important it is to develop partnerships in the industry.
I had the opportunity to meet many of the members in the industry. Whether it was the aboriginal community, the commercial industry, the sports fishery or the small communities, they wanted a change in the fisheries. They wanted a change which would help build a stronger and more sustainable fishery. One way they wanted to do this was by building strong partnerships.
The reason we want to build strong partnerships is so that people will have a vested interest in the fisheries. It will ensure that when people are involved in the fisheries, they will act in a responsible way.
One of the highlights of this bill is it builds partnerships. It also gives the minister the ability to sign agreements and ensure that the communities and the industry are very much involved in the management of the fisheries.
The other area this legislation tends to emphasize is the administrative side. One of the things that many groups talked about and which was important for B.C. was to ensure that there was more local input in the decision making. Some of the changes in this bill ensure that we have boards not only in the Pacific but in the Atlantic as well. This will ensure that those boards are sensitive and that the decision making is based on regional needs and requirements. The bill addresses that particular concern.
The bill also deals with licences, how licence appeals are to be based and the whole licensing policy. This is very important for British Columbia and all of Canada.
I could go on and on about a whole array of subjects that are important and which my colleagues have failed to talk about. They have only talked about jurisdiction.
When I worked with the former minister of fisheries we looked at the salmon treaty and tried very hard to deal with that. As members know, this act incorporates the act which was brought in to deal with foreign overfishing. This will be simpler and easier to deal with.
This is a very good bill. We have to compliment the minister of fisheries for bringing in legislation which is modern, up to date, flexible and which reflects some new realities in the fisheries. The fisheries have changed a lot and the demands from the communities have changed a lot. If we want to have sustainable fisheries and truly want to protect our fisheries, the act will provide the needed flexibility to do so.
One of the most important components of this bill is habitat. This bill amends the habitat provisions to help habitat in the Fisheries Act. These important provisions of the legislation allow the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to delegate several freshwater habitat protection responsibilities to provincial governments that are in a better position to fulfil them. That is a very good common sense approach.
We heard the member of Parliament from Chicoutimi talk about allowing the provincial government to deal with this. That is what this bill does. It states that it wants to delegate several freshwater habitat protection responsibilities. This addresses some of the concerns that have been put forward. It makes very good common sense.
This government has continued to make sure that we take a very common sense approach. Where the provincial governments can do a better job, where they can administrate better, where they can deal with the responsibilities and where we can reduce overlap, this legislation deals with it.
Canadians have said they want us to reduce overlap and duplication with the provinces. This bill deals with that by having delegation agreements with the provinces. It deals with it by clarifying roles and setting out clear responsibilities that will improve habitat management and make it more consistent across the country, that will help to eliminate the overlap of federal and provincial roles in freshwater habitat protection and reduce the confusion that results from such overlap, that will clearly spell out which level of government will be responsible for what aspects of habitat management. These agreements would not change the constitutional responsibilities of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.
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The Canadian fishing industry is an international industry with 80 per cent of Canada's production being exported to over 70 countries worldwide. Canada is the world's fifth largest exporter of fish and seafood products. There is a significant international component to the whole fishing industry. The members of the Bloc would not agree with that because they do not realize that 70 per cent of the fishery involves exports. They think it should be mandated provincially but it has a very international mandate.
Recently I travelled across Canada as the vice-chair on the national Liberal task force on aquaculture to regions with active aquaculture industries. It is a new developing industry. I have come away with the impression of a positive future for this rapidly expanding industry.
For example, in 1995, B.C. sold $165 million in farm fish and fish products while employing thousands on a full time basis. Eighty-five per cent of this product is exported to markets in the United States and along the Pacific rim. This new industry will provide jobs, business opportunities and boost the Canadian economy. That is why we as Liberals recognize that.
We recognize the new opportunities that exist in this area which is why we have a task force. It is unfortunate that other members have not recognized the opportunities that exist out there.
I will conclude by giving other members an opportunity to speak as well. The objective of the provisions of the bill is to clarify roles and responsibilities. This legislation will go a long way to protect fish habitat. I urge hon. members to support this much needed legislation.
Mr. John Cummins (Delta, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I was delighted that my friend from Vancouver South decided to address this fisheries bill.
I am also delighted to learn that he has gone sport fishing twice. I did not realize that he had invested so much time in the pursuit of fish but I think it is a very worthwhile objective for him. I believe he is taking his anti-capital punishment leanings a little too far when he goes fishing and does not catch any fish, that is not the purpose of it.
I would also suggest that success in fishing has something to do with virtue. Virtue is rewarded. I would be happy to take him out fishing with me sometime. A little of my virtue might rub off on him and he might have a little more luck. We will see about that.
The issue I want to question him about has to do with the delegation of authority for habitat to the provincial government. It is common knowledge in British Columbia and I believe right across this nation that the current premier of British Columbia, Glen Clark, makes Brian Mulroney look like the truth fairy.
When we turn something as critical as habitat over to that provincial government we must have some very stringent guidelines in place, guidelines that we know will be lived up to and fulfilled. Otherwise I would fear for the habitat.
We have plenty of examples in B.C. where the provincial government is responsible for protection of habitat. In the last few years it has fallen down on the job. For example, there have been instances where construction of the new island highway on Vancouver Island has led to the desecration of good coho habitat. How can we turn this kind of responsibility over to that provincial government without some ironclad guarantees?
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Mr. Dhaliwal: Mr. Speaker, I would love to take the member up on his offer to go fishing with him but I am afraid I might get arrested and spend two days in the slammer and I am not sure if I want to do that. I will have to get certain guarantees that I will not be arrested when I go fishing with the member.
The hon. member for Delta has a very good point about making sure that we have standards. Part of this legislation is to make sure that we have national standards to ensure that all provinces, when they manage the habitat, have signed an agreement. Within those agreements there will be standards to which they must adhere. I agree with him that we need standards but that is in the bill. Part of
what the bill is all about is to give those powers so that we can negotiate and have national standards.
I ask the hon. member to go back to the bill. This is one of the main purposes of the bill, to ensure that there are national standards and habitats are protected. That is under the minister's constitutional mandate and the agreements will be there to do it.
As much as I agree with him, I think if he reads the bill he will understand and recognize that his concerns have been dealt with under the bill.
Mrs. Jean Payne (St. John's West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise this evening to speak on Bill C-62. I want to thank the hon. member from the Bloc. I must admit I miss these days of not being able to listen to him. His knowledge of the industry is deep and I still miss being in the fisheries committee.
The new bill contains provisions that will authorize the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to enter into legally binding fisheries management agreements with commercial licence holders, aboriginal organizations and other groups, for example, the recreational fishing industry.
This new approach to management, or partnering as we are now calling it, will serve as a cornerstone for developing a new relationship between the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and fisheries stakeholders. We have heard on a couple of occasions this evening about the confusion that exists with regard to management and partnering. I would like to clarify some of those issues.
What is partnering? It is the logical next step in the evolution of fisheries management. It will build on and extend their existing co-management approach. It will provide for a more efficient and effective fisheries management regime and also increase the role of industry stakeholders in the decision making process. It will also provide greater opportunities for community involvement. Like any partnering arrangement, co-operation cannot be imposed. It will be up to the stakeholders whether they wish to discuss and pursue fisheries management partnering with DFO.
A partnering agreement between DFO and a group of stakeholders will spell out the terms and conditions on how the fishery will be managed for a defined period of time. It will be legally binding on both parties. This type of security, provided through a legally binding agreement where the rules of the game are clearly specified, is what many sectors of the industry have been requesting for quite some time.
It will provide incentives for better conservation and management of the resource plus give fishers the certainty that will allow for better business decision making and as we said earlier, for more stable incomes.
Discussions were held with most sectors of the industry on a partnering approach. In fact these discussions are still ongoing. Many of the ideas which are being discussed have come directly from the industry. The concept is work in progress. There are still many important issues to sort out with stakeholders. There are already some fisheries in Canada where co-management, which is a precursor to partnering, are already in place. For example, in British Columbia we have a co-management process with the Geoduck fishery since 1990 allowing fishers ongoing input into the management and decision making process.
Similar arrangements exist for halibut and sable fish fisheries where fishers have direct involvement in the management of their fishery. In Quebec, the beluga fishery has been managed since 1982 on a co-management basis, also allowing input from aboriginal fisheries into the management of that fishery.
Agreements in some of the maritime region's crab and shrimp fisheries provide the basis for industry to participate in the decision making process and to share the costs of managing the fishery and research.
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Co-management is used in exploratory fisheries as a way to conduct scientific and market studies to determine if a commercial fishery would be sustainable and viable.
In the maritimes, exploratory fisheries for skate, monkfish, Jonah or rock crab and red crab are under way. This approach is allowing the industry and government to learn more about these fisheries in terms of biology, harvesting practices and potential markets.
Our goal is to continue to build on these types of initiatives. Not everyone is ready for change nor do they understand the concept fully. There are those who support the approach and have requested further consultation. Others wrongly view this as DFO's way to privatize the resource. Some have suggested that partnering is only for high valued lucrative fisheries. This is not the case.
To set the record straight the following should be understood. Partnering will allow for joint decision making by licence holders on the management of the fishery. It will allow industry and government to work together to ensure conservation of the resource remains paramount.
It must be considered for fishers in all sectors of the industry and for other resource users and their communities should they wish to explore this approach further. It requires each party, for example DFO and the sector, to bring something to the table. It is a two way street where benefits must accrue to both parties and allow for a more stable operating environment for fleet sectors who are prepared to share in the management of the fishery.
A cornerstone of the partnering approach is that these agreements must be in the public interest and not give preference or special treatment to individual groups. The agreements will not be imposed on the fishing sector. Both parties must agree on the terms and conditions for the agreement to come into force. It must complement and enhance our resource management objectives for the fishery, namely, the environmentally sustainable, economically
viable, integrating both economic and social considerations, and encouraging the industry to be self-reliant.
Both parties should adopt a flexible approach toward developing partnering agreements. These agreements can take on many different designs which will depend on individual circumstances.
There are some things that partnering will not do. It will not lessen the power of the minister with respect to conservation of the resource or prevent the minister from taking action to address conservation concerns. It will not result in change in historical landing patterns or current management strategies to conserve the resource or require all fishers to enter into partnering arrangements.
It should be understood that partnering may not be applicable or feasible in all fisheries. It will not be considered for only high valued lucrative fisheries. All sectors of the fishery are encouraged to explore the process.
Backroom deals will not happen. All stakeholders subject to the agreement will be consulted with regard to the proposed agreement. It will not privatize the resource or result in the fishery being administered or managed by large corporations, nor will it be designed solely to pass on fisheries management costs to the industry.
Partnering means for the fishing industry that it will provide the basis for industry to proceed on a new regime of fisheries management, a fishery that will have less government involvement and real industry input into the decision making process which is what has been requested of this government and other governments.
Partnering will require working with fisheries in coastal communities to find more efficient and effective ways to manage their fisheries. The industry has a legitimate role to play in fisheries management.
Partnership will set the framework for the industry to be more accountable for its actions and assume more responsibility for management activities specifically related to their sector. It will create a more stable operating environment in that DFO would formalize longer term allocation scenarios. This would allow for a stable operating environment within the industry allowing for longer term business planning.
With this in mind, partnering has the potential to change the behaviour of fishers to focus on conservation as they become true stewards of the resource. In some cases partnering could mean sharing the financial responsibility for fisheries management and science.
What does partnering mean for DFO? DFO would be able to evolve from being solely accountable for the management of the fishery to a position of shared accountability. It will continue to be responsible for conservation and protection of the resource. DFO will set the standards and audit industry performance to ensure that the standards are being met. It will be able to manage the fishery more effectively with reduced resources, focusing on its mandate of conservation, doing what government does best and letting the industry do what it does best.
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Partnering will allow for direct and full dialogue with the industry. A typical partnering agreement will clearly set out: the allocation process for access to the resource; those who are in the fishery, and the process for additional participation in the fishery; mechanisms for each party to have a say in the decision making process; suggested sanction levels for various offences; roles and responsibilities for each party in the management of the fishery; and the financial obligations for each party.
Where do we go from here and what will happen next? The legislative authority to enable DFO to enter into the partnering agreements has been tabled in Parliament. The new fisheries act, if passed, will provide the basis for the legal implementation of partnering agreements. Until the new act is law, legally binding partnering agreements with respect to management of the fishery cannot be entered into.
The final details on how formalized co-management and eventual partnering will work will evolve through industry and DFO consultations. DFO has been consulting and will continue to consult with the industry.
Partnering will provide an opportunity for all sectors of the fishing industry to speak with a more united and effective voice. It is in line with the Government of Canada's desire to see more influence flowing to the fishers and consequently to their communities where fishing is the mainstay, and I can say that this is no more true in any riding than it is in mine.
The idea of the industry and government working together co-operatively to achieve joint goals and objectives makes common sense. Partnering has the potential to evolve as the management regime of choice as we proceed into the 21st century.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Gaspé, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I must say it had been a while since I had last heard my hon. colleague from St. John's West speak.
I will be as brief as possible, but I just could not let what the hon. member for Vancouver South said at the beginning of his remarks pass without comment. We are hearing speeches from Liberal members from coast to coast, from Newfoundland to Vancouver.
The hon. member for Vancouver South said that fish does not know boundaries. I would like to start my speech by stating that, at present, under the existing legislation and the proposed legislation as well, if we look at the situation in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, around Newfoundland for instance, live cod falls under federal jurisdiction. But when it is dead, regardless of where it is-be it in Newfoundland or in Gaspé, Quebec-it becomes the responsibility of the province, because the provinces have jurisdiction over processing plants. They are the ones that issue licences. That is why the current minister and his predecessor have had and still have all kinds of problems. Nothing was done about streamlining.
Why do I raise this issue? Because my hon. colleague has been a member of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans for the past two years, yet, as far as I can see, this bill does not contain any guidelines as to the direction the industry should take in the future. We have heard about Brian Tobin's plans to limit fishing capacity, but there is not a word in here about future directions.
Worse yet, while partnership agreements are provided for, they may only be entered into with the minister's approval, based on the opinion of the minister. I refer the hon. member to paragraph 17(1). It clearly states that the minister may enter into an agreement with any organization that, in his opinion, is representative of a class of persons or holders. We do not know who will be part of such a group. It would be very important to specify it.
Another thing is very clear, and I wonder how the hon. member will be able to sell this to her constituents. I also wonder how Nova Scotia members will do it. It is clearly stated and the hon. member said it: to be part of a management agreement, one will have to pay new management fees, in addition to the fishing rights that people began paying in 1995. Such is the heritage left to them by Mr. Tobin.
(1705)
I see that the Minister of National Revenue is with us. I hope we will hear from her this afternoon. This is another bonus for the government. Once again, it will take money from the pockets of fishers. I thought we had only one tax system in Canada: a person works, earns money and pays taxes. However, in the case of fishers, and the hon. member for Nova Scotia said so literally, she makes no bones about it, there will be two tax systems. How will she sell this to her constituents?
I say this in the presence of the revenue minister, and I am very comfortable doing so. Maybe she will provide a reply. It was just indicated that Canadian fishers will be subject to two tax systems. They will pay when they file their tax return, but the government will also take money from their pockets. I would appreciate a reply from the hon. member.
[English]
Mrs. Payne: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. As I said before, he has a great knowledge of the fishery.
The member knows that this is the first time since 1868 that the act has been rewritten. There were a great many flaws in the act.
As the member is well aware, the ongoing consultations have tried to work out for the benefit of the industry and the stakeholders in the industry what is the best area of jurisdiction for the provinces and what is the best area of jurisdiction for the federal government. This bill speaks to that. It outlines very clearly where the jurisdiction lies. That was not done by the federal government alone or the provinces alone; it was done in consultation with all of the stakeholders: the fisher people, the harvesters, the provinces, and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
The bill is clear. It is very streamlined and simple. It outlines exactly what the provinces will be responsible for.
There will be ongoing consultations. It is not a closed book. If something is not working, then we will talk about it and we will make it work.
One of the things that will happen is that the fishery will be managed. It will not be open for everyone to rape and pillage as was done in the past. All of us know what happened to the fishery on the east coast. We all know what will happen to many other stocks if they are not managed properly.
That is what the bill is designed to do. It is what the bill will do in a fair and consultative way with the provinces and the stakeholders.
Mrs. Sharon Hayes (Port Moody-Coquitlam, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-62.
As a member of Parliament from British Columbia, I am pleased to rise on behalf of many of my constituents whose concern over the management of the western fisheries is far more than just academic. Many of my constituents and those of my colleagues have been and are directly impacted by government fishing policies. Unfortunately, this impact lately and largely has been detrimental due to the injustice reflected by present Liberal government policies.
Bill C-62 rewrites the Fisheries Act and combines with it the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act.
What do we see in the fisheries today? There are problems in the fisheries. Much of them are the result of government mismanagement. On the east coast much of the fishery is closed due to the collapse of the groundfish stocks. On the west coast there are severe problems. There are continuing problems with the Alaskan
catch of Canadian bound salmon which remain unresolved with the Pacific salmon treaty.
On the west coast we also have the salmon fishery which is our key fish stock. It is a fishery which is in total disarray. There have been almost no non-native commercial fisheries on the Fraser River, which borders my constituency, for the past two years. The government native only commercial fishery is also in disarray.
Unfortunately the fisheries act which is before us today does nothing to address the foundational problems which exist in the government's high-handed approach to the fisheries.
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Fisheries mismanagement has already had a deep impact on the livelihood of many B.C. fishers. I fear that continued mismanagement and the mindset we have seen hold dire consequences for the future.
Perhaps the most significant injustice in the present system and one which has received a fair amount of press coverage in my area is the manner in which the government has flaunted a supreme court decision that has literally established a race based fishery policy which benefits B.C.'s aboriginal fishers at the expense of the rest of the fishers in the province of British Columbia. In doing so it has trounced Canadian legal tradition and thus violated the rights of all Canadians.
In 1992 the fisheries minister of the day told fishers that the supreme court decision of Sparrow v. the Queen required the establishment of an exclusive native only commercial fishery specifically in law. In 1995 after the Fraser report's scathing condemnation of the government's race based policy, the supreme court declared unequivocally that its previous ruling did not call for such a system.
The native only commercial fishery was undermined by the supreme court's August 1996 Van der Peet, NTC Smokehouse and Gladstone decision. The court ruled against an aboriginal right. They have no right to an exclusive fishery. B.C. natives do not have a constitutional right to catch and sell fish commercially. Once the decision came down in August, regular commercial fishers, including my colleague, started to fish with the native commercial fisheries and had a full right to do so.
Thus, with no mandate from the courts, no mandate from the Canadian people and no mandate from Parliament, this government today maintains an unjust and, I will say, discriminatory policy in the fisheries on the west coast.
Specific to this management of the fisheries and specific to the item I have just mentioned, there is nothing that government can do under this new fisheries act that it cannot do already under existing legislation except, which I point out very specifically, for the right to extinguish the public right to fish. This essential change with respect to fisheries management is that the minister gains substantial powers to do what currently requires the specific authorization of Parliament or cabinet. This flies in the face of democracy and the good interests of the public fisheries in Canada.
The fisheries act which Canadians hoped would restore equity in the system fails to do so. As a result, the Reform Party cannot support this bill.
Today, I would like to take the time I have been given to read into the record a report that throws much light on many of the issues we are talking about today. It is a report written as a response to the Fraser River Sockeye Public Review Board. It is of note that this report is an evaluation commissioned by DFO on the performance of DFO with regard to the recommendations of the Fraser report which I mentioned earlier.
I will proceed to read this response into the record so that we can see the whole picture and how DFO has responded to what needed to be done. Some of the department's responses to the recommendations of the Fraser report are incomplete and others are still under study. The comments of this evaluation fall into six categories: management; institutional arrangements; the quality of the management principles; the aboriginal fishing strategy; the environment; and user groups views and responsibilities.
Under the title of management, specifically risk aversion management, the first recommendation is:
We recommend that DFO retain and exercise its constitutional responsibilities and not in any way abrogate its stewardship of resources under federal jurisdiction. Conservation must be the primary objective of both fisheries managers and all others participating in the fishery. The conservation ethics must prevail throughout and be adhered to by all.(1715)
The comments on the evaluation were:
-DFO did not achieve its escapement targets for Fraser sockeye in 1995.
-stock-specific conservation of Fraser River sockeye is threatened.
DFO cannot hope to succeed without a clear vision of what it is trying to achieve i.e., achieving conservation is more than just meeting escapement targets. The first requirement, therefore is an explicit definition of ``conservation''.
There can be no conservation of Fraser sockeye salmon in the long run without equivalent care and protection for the habitat on which fish stocks rely. In this light, the pending expiration of key programs as the Fraser River Action Plan, and the funding base that has supported it in recent years, is of utmost concern.
In terms of outcome, however, DFO was not fully successful.
DFO came close to achieving its escapement targets in 1995-It did not, however, fully achieve them. There were escapement shortfalls relative to target levels for all major run groupings with the most significant for the late runs.
The escapement shortfalls in 1995 indicate the need for even more prudence in DFO's planning and management than it exhibited in 1995.
Retaining and not abrogating: DFO officials do not believe they have in any way abrogated their responsibilities, but recognize there is perception of this, particularly in commercial and recreational fisheries. DFO did not directly respond to this part of the recommendation or the perceptions or concerns that underlie it.
Conservation must be a primary objective: Again from DFO's point of view this is a problem of perception, not substance.
There is a difference between recognition of intent and confidence in success. In 1995, run sizes were significantly overestimated, and fishing effort was sharply curtailed-As a result, public confidence in DFO's ability to achieve its conservation goals have been underestimated.I can attest to that.
While escapement targets are above levels necessary to preserve the runs in aggregate, they are not in themselves necessarily adequate to preserve weaker stocks.
DFO did not achieve its escapement targets because it overestimated run size both pre-season and in-season-DFO was not always able to curtail fishing effort as much as required.
Failure to meet these targets, even if it does not place the resource-in aggregate-at risk, does point to the challenge of ensuring that DFO's conservation goals are achieved.
The unprecedented poor returns in 1995 suggest that DFO may also need to reconsider the targets it aims to meet. There is the longstanding concern about the diminution of weak stocks and the growing number of strong stocks-Making conservation a top priority requires reconsideration of their targets themselves and not just how they might be more consistently achieved.Those are comments to the first recommendation. The second recommendation:
We recommend that DFO take immediate steps to initiate a process of planning for the future of the fishery, addressing all critical problems affecting conservation and sustainability, through an ongoing consultative forum. Among the problems to be considered would be over-capitalization, user-group allocation and ensuring equitable treatment under the law.Comments to this:
Fleet reduction, in itself, will not address the fundamental problem underlying over-capitalization of the fleet-the common property nature of the commercial fleet.
The intersectoral allocation issue may not get resolved as planned. It is not clear whether a supportable framework will in fact be developed and implemented.
To date, DFO has not established a broad, multi-stakeholder consultative process to plan for the future and address critical problems affecting conservation and sustainability. DFO has not identified the responsibilities and composition it should have, nor its relationship to existing processes.(1720)
The third recommendation:
We recommend that DFO and PSC adopt a risk aversion management strategy because of the great uncertainty on stock estimates, in season catch estimates and environmental problems. Conservation goals must be achieved before any other priorities are addressed.A risk averse strategy has not yet been developed. We found in our evaluation that DFO's actions were not the result of an explicit, well-defined risk averse management strategy, but rather were a response to the unprecedented events of the 1995 fishery.
DFO's actions were not based on a well-defined risk averse management strategy. The question of how DFO defines risk averse and how risk averse is expected to promote conservation must be addressed. Without this clarity there is no way to test if DFO's activities are in fact guided by well conceived and well defined strategy or whether their activities in themselves define what DFO means by risk averse.
The fourth recommendation:
We recommend that DFO, in conjunction with provincial authorities, First Nations, commercial and recreational fishing groups implement (both in marine and in-river areas) a revised system to ensure that catch information is timely and reliable, given that accurate counting and timely reporting of catch are fundamental to conservation. The system must also include a more stringent paper trail. There must be stricter control of landing and sales slips and a retention of sales slips with fish through to retail sales or export.
We recommend that DFO explore the application of new technology to collect information on stock levels in ocean areas in order to supplement catch statistics.They made recommendations on institutional arrangements. We recommend that DFO develop better co-ordinated, inter-party communications among its staff and between staff and PSC, First Nations, commercial and recreational fishing groups with a greater degree of co-operation aimed at enhanced in-season management and post-season evaluation and at fostering working arrangements among all parties, and facilitate clearer and more transparent management and allocation policies.
The recommendations are an institutional arrangement and there are a number. We recommend that DFO and PSC give First Nations greater and more meaningful access to and involvement in the management process.
Quality management principles is another area. We recommend that DFO make a commitment to quality management principles in the management of fixed stocks by specific region and in this context for the third party quality auditing organization be contracted to provide ongoing services.
There is a litany of recommendations and a litany of where DFO has fallen short in meeting these recommendations.
I recommend to the House that the department again reviews all of these recommendations and the shortfalls so that, indeed, what is in the bill today will better reflect the well founded concerns and act accordingly.
In conclusion, I would like to put forward an amendment from the Reform Party. I move that the amendment be amended by adding:
``and that the committee report back to the House no later than June 19, 1997''.(1725 )
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member has provided her subamendment. The Chair will rule on it shortly. In the meantime the debate will continue. Questions and comments.
Mr. John Cummins (Delta, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for her submission today. I agree wholeheartedly with what she had to say. The one point she made which I certainly support is the fact that the only thing the government can do in this bill which it cannot do in existing legislation is to extinguish the public right to fish. That may not seem like much but let us look at the implications of it.
Clause 17(1) says:
Her Majesty in right of Canada, represented by the Minister, may enter into a fisheries management agreement with any organization that, in the opinion of the Minister, is representative of a class of persons or holders.What does that mean? It means in the first instance that the public right to fish is eliminated. The minister now will control the resource. He will be able to say to his friends that they have the right to capture a certain amount of the fish stocks and that is just the way it will be. There is no appeal when something like that happens.
For instance, he could go to a lodge owner who was a good contributor to his party-and I am not suggesting in any way, shape or form that the current minister would do this, but it opens a door for someone to do this kind of thing in the future.
Some minister in the future who lacked a sense of fair play and what is right and wrong could come to a friend who was a great contributor to himself or to his party and say: ``I'll give you 20,000 fish to harvest'' and that would be it. It would be a fait accompli.
The bill says as well in clause 19:
The Minister shall publish a fisheries management agreement in the manner he sees fit.Therefore, he does not have to tell you and I that he has given this other individual 20,000 chinook to harvest. He does not have to tell anybody, except it states in clause 18 that before a fisheries management agreement is entered into, notice of it shall be given to the holders or persons likely to be subject to it.
The only people he has to tell are the people who are liable to catch the fish. In the instance of a sports fishing lodge operator he lets the guys know who are coming to his sports lodge that yes, they can catch these fish because he has this agreement with the minister that gives him the right to do it, but the public does not have to know.
How does that affect us? If we take my friend from Labrador who spoke earlier or we take into consideration my friend from Vancouver South who spoke of his history of two trips out sports fishing, what that means is that they could be barred from fishing simply because somebody else has been secretly given the right to catch those fish.
The impact is on the public. It is on the individuals. It is on you and me and anybody else who wants access to that resource. We will lose it. We lose access to the resource.
The member for Vancouver Quadra said here the other day that we did not understand the section of the Magna Carta that dealt with the public right to fish because we did not speak the language that the Magna Carta was written in, so how could we understand it. He was casting aspersions on the Supreme Court of Canada because as recently as last August in the Gladstone case the supreme court acknowledged that the public right to fish has existed since the time of the Magna Carta. That public right can only be extinguished by competent legislation, in other words by legislation which passes through this House.
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How the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra could say we cannot justify the public right to fish and the existence of that with reference to the Magna Carta is beyond me. The Supreme Court of Canada can do it and certainly we can too.
What happens if we extinguish that public right to fish and we give the minister the authority to dispense fish to his friends? We open the door to all sorts of secret arrangements and pay-offs, pay-offs from the public purse so to speak, from the public treasury. This is a resource owned by all Canadians yet it could be doled out and given to whomever the minister sees fit, to whomever he wants to make that donation. That is totally unacceptable. It is something I do not think the people of British Columbia can tolerate. It is certainly something that this House should not tolerate as well.
The Deputy Speaker: Order. I believe we are now into private members' time.
The ruling with respect to the subamendment will be made the next time the matter is called. The member will have the right to reply to the question from her colleague the next time the matter is called.
[Translation]
It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.