That in relation to Bill C-42, an Act to amend the Judges Act and to make consequential amendments to another Act, not more than one further sitting day shall be allotted to the stage of consideration of Senate amendments to the bill and, fifteen minutes before the expiry of the time provided for government business on the allotted day of the consideration of the said stage of the said bill, any proceedings before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the purpose of this Order, and in turn every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the bill shall be put forthwith and successively without further debate or amendment.The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Deputy Speaker: Call in the members.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)
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[English]
(Motion agreed to.)
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure today to speak on Bill C-42, an act to amend the Judges Act.
Fundamentally, the Canadian judiciary must remain independent and free of bias or coercion from outside sources, in particular those which stem from special interest groups or, in fact, Parliament.
This bill concerns Madam Justice Louise Arbour. She was appointed to be the chief prosecutor in The Hague for the UN war crimes tribunal. At the outset I would like to say that is not only an honour for her but it is an honour for all Canadians. She will take the place of Chief Justice Richard Goldstone of South Africa, a highly distinguished individual. Her appointment to this position demonstrates the confidence which the international community has in Canada and its judiciary. We are looked on as being a nation which, by and large, maintains a great deal of independence, for which we are highly respected by the international community. It is a degree of respect which is completely out of proportion to our size and our economy. A lot of Canadians do not realize the respect which the international community has for our nation. The appointment of Judge Arbour certainly demonstrates that respect.
The amendment to Bill C-42 is a good one. I must commend the Senate for bringing it to the attention of the House. Bill C-42 ensures that there will not be a cozy relationship between our judges and outside influence. Without this amendment judges, technically, could be open to influence, not only within Canada but also outside our borders.
The appropriate middle ground would be for Canadian judges to step down temporarily to take up very important appointments, such as the one we are discussing today. Judge Arbour is perhaps the most prominent of all the Canadian judges who have been appointed to a position in the recent past.
The role which the Canadian judiciary plays in enabling democratic and judicial institutions to build up in other countries is important. It is particularly important in the democratic and judicial restructuring of countries which have been wracked by war. Many of these countries do not have a proper judicial process in place. Many of them have had their judicial process destroyed.
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Canada has a very good judicial system. It is something that could be exported to other countries. In that way those countries could be taught how to plan a judiciary that is free of bias, free of influence and independent of the wiles and influences, powers and purses of other groups in the community. It is a basic tenet of living in a free and democratic institution, one with which everyone in the House agrees.
This bill contains a number of important considerations and concerns that Canadians have made with respect to the judiciary. One of those is the appointment process. The number one criterion in becoming a judge ought to be merit and experience. At present, though, judges are appointed on the basis of not necessarily what they know but who they know.
We have many good judges in our system. They are superb, intelligent, bright, meticulous and articulate individuals who do great honour to our system. We in the Reform and the Canadian public have a problem with the appointment of those rare individuals who come into the system, not on the basis of their skill, not on the basis of their merit but because they are a friend of the government of the day. That has to be addressed. If the government were to take that on, it would add increased credibility to our judicial system.
Recently the courts moved from interpreting the law to making laws. In fact they have shot down laws that this House has passed. It stems from the 1982 charter of rights and freedoms. The charter has given increasing powers to the judicial system, in particular the supreme court, to actually make laws.
Members of the public, when talking to me about this, find it quite perturbing, as many in the House do, that the supreme court, a group of appointed, not elected, individuals actually have the power to supplant laws that have been passed by the House. The public does not understand that and find it extremely grievous.
A better idea would be to rein in the supreme court, to make sure that its role is to interpret law, not to make law. I am not a lawyer but it would be very good if the government studied ways to revamp the judicial system to ensure that the supreme court goes back to interpreting law and not making law.
Another aspect I will touch on briefly is that Bill C-42, to which this amendment applies, deals with some extremely generous pension benefits for judges. That needs to be dealt with further, I am quite sure in the future.
Reform also finds quite grievous the way the bill is being finessed through the House. It belies an increasingly perceived cosy relationship between the Minister of Justice and the judiciary. These kind of relationships have to be severed. The judicial system, our courts and our judges have to be separate in their decision making process from this House and the Minister of Justice.
As a former correctional officer I would like to say one thing about Judge Arbour. She is most known for her scathing indictment of what went on at Kingston in the women's penitentiary and the riot that took place. I have never been on record in saying this but I would like to take the opportunity to do so.
I found, as a former correctional officer, it to be completely, grossly unfair and a scathing indictment of the correctional services. During a riot-I have seen this happen-in a penitentiary when dealing with inmates, who often do not deal in the ways we deal with each other in public, can become a very dangerous situation. Inmates can be carrying hidden weapons. It is very reasonable to ensure that those individuals are stripped searched. In a riot situation it is important to go in with overwhelming force. It is important for the safety of the correctional officers. It is also important for the inmates. Going in with less than overwhelming force actually poses a greater threat to the inmates and to the correctional officers.
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I was greatly disappointed by the unfair and negative treatment our correctional services received. It became an issue of political correctness and trial by media. It was not an issue of fact and what is reasonable in those very difficult and trying circumstances. Most members of the public would not understand this because thankfully most people have not been in jail.
I would like to touch on an important aspect of Judge Arbour's current responsibilities, one on which Canada can take a leadership role. It has to do with the war crimes tribunals that are taking place in the Hague.
I had an opportunity to meet briefly with Judge Richard Goldstone a few months ago. He was visiting Canada to ensure that the war crimes tribunal continued. As we speak, it is in a state of flux and could potentially fall apart. This would do grievous harm to the principles of international law to which most civilians and politicians in the world adhere.
Most nations of the world follow certain rules and regulations in an effort to ensure that those who are least powerful, mostly civilians, are governed by some basic tenets of law that protect them, their property and their families.
The war crimes tribunal unfortunately came into existence because of the absolute disgusting turn of events most recently in Bosnia, Rwanda and Burundi. It also stems from previous war crimes tribunals such as the Nuremberg trials and from previous international agreements on international law over the governance of war.
If we are not going to support the war crimes tribunal and ensure that it continues, all the international laws that exist from the Nuremberg trials to what we have today will be for nothing. If we allow this organization to fall apart, which it is in the processing of doing, then it will send a message to those who would commit heinous, atrocious, appalling crimes that they are free to do what they want because no one in the world is going to bring them to justice. They will be left to continue committing these terrible crimes.
Therefore, I implore the government to back Judge Arbour and her colleagues and use its influence to get other countries to also back the war crimes tribunal taking place in the Hague. The government should also try to ensure that it becomes more effective. They are finding it impossible to work under certain circumstances. There is a lack of funding and manpower which makes it almost impossible for them to bring war criminals to trial. There are also other numerous bureaucratic entanglements which prevent them from doing their jobs.
It is going to require an increasing amount of international co-operation. We have an ideal opportunity, having a Canadian as the chief prosecutor, to pursue a course that is going to streamline and increase the effectiveness of the war crimes tribunals. Having a Canadian there will carry forward our skills as a nation and a leader in diplomatic endeavours to the Hague and to the war crimes tribunals.
We also have an enormous role to play in the world. The situation in Zaire and central Africa must be looked at for what it is. This is an impartial, apolitical issue as a half a million to a million people's lives are on the line. Some things have to be done at the outset. We have to get the agreement of the Zairean government to ensure that reconnaissance takes place in eastern Zaire to determine exactly what is going on. Humanitarian groups that are poised to go in and provide assistance to these people cannot go in because it is an extraordinarily dangerous situation.
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I am not advocating for a moment sending in a huge mass of troops armed to the teeth to stop a war. That simply is not going to happen. We have to prioritize what we have to do. The first priority must be to ensure the safety of those half million odd civilians who are fleeing from the fighting. Many are being killed by Tutsi rebels who want to kill off male Hutus.
A possible solution would be to send a multinational force. Canada can provide the logistics, troops from the Organization of African Unity and the EU, independent of Belgian and French troops, could go into the area and ensure that safe corridors are available for the civilians to go back to be repatriated into Rwanda.
Second, humanitarian groups that are already on the ground with medicines and food must be allowed to safely go into eastern Zaire to provide these basic necessities to these people. What is faced now and in the coming days is an epidemic in these populations of malnutrition and starvation and also an epidemic of diseases such as typhoid fever and cholera that is going to kill thousands on thousands of people.
This, though, cannot be the end of it. We have seen a cycle develop in central African over years and years of killing and some repatriation and further killings taking place. The cycle of killing and death has to stop.
The international community cannot keep pouring money into central Africa without an end point. As politically incorrect as this is to say, perhaps we should take a very close look at working with the three governments in the area to redraw some of the tribal lines to ensure that Hutus and Tutsis live in their pre-colonial tribal areas. Maybe this is a solution that would enable the warring factions to stay away from each other.
There has to be a demilitarization of the extremists on both sides. It is extremists in the Hutus and the Tutsis that are taking a significant role in trying to continue the fighting in their areas. They are not only killing members from the opposing tribe, they are also killing moderates within their own tribes. What is left is a very fearful group of civilians powerless to change the course of events because they are ruled by extremist militias who are doing things only for the benefit of themselves and a very narrow group of political elites within their own separate countries.
We have also an opportunity in Zaire, a country that is one of the poorest in the world, as Mobutu Sese Seko recovers from prostate cancer in France, to try to convince him that now is the time for us to work with the IMF and the World Bank to build up the democratic and economic structures within Zaire which are required for long term peace. Not only does this have to happen within Zaire but it also has to occur in Rwanda and Burundi.
Without the restructuring that has to take place in these three countries, peace will not occur. All we will be doing by pouring money into the situation today is for the cycle of violence and starvation repeat itself at some time in the future.
We persistently pursue short term goals. I implore the government to work with the international community to convince them that we should pursue not only a short term solution to save the civilian populations within eastern Zaire and Rwanda but also pursue a longer term solution for economic, judicial and democratic restructuring that has to take place in these three areas.
It will require a stronger arm and more active influence. This is where the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank can come into play. Initiatives from them within the country in terms of peace building between groups that were fighting each other, in terms of blocking off arms, redressing the poverty situation perhaps through microloans, systems along those of the Grameen Bank, will all help to ensure long term peace within the area. These initiatives are absolutely essential for peace to occur.
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As a country we do not consider our power in the international community to bring groups, nations and organizations together. Louise Arbour's being the head of the war crimes tribunal is but one example of our reputation as a nation. It is also an example of how we can be involved in international organizations to revamp them so they will truly address the problems that will affect us all in the 21st century but which very few governments and people are willing to address.
Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan (Parliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member for Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca observed in his reference to the Supreme Court of Canada that our judicial system now has more powers, now makes laws. He seemed to blame the charter of rights and freedoms and he claimed the public does not know about this. I submit that those observations are wrong.
The Supreme Court of Canada never makes laws. We know that and we have a duty to tell the citizens of the country that the supreme court does not make laws. The members of the Reform Party are laughing at this. They seem not to appreciate that the charter of rights and freedoms is a fundamental part of the Canadian Constitution, the supreme law of the land.
When the Supreme Court of Canada interprets the laws passed by parliaments or any other legislative body in the country, the Supreme Court of Canada has a duty and obligation to have the laws tested in light of the charter of rights and freedoms, the supreme law of the land. In this respect the court does not make new laws; it only interprets them to ensure that laws passed by Parliament do not contravene the fundamental law of the land.
The Canadian judicial system has received international acclaim and distinction for its independence, integrity, talent and creativity. It is creativity we see when the Supreme Court of Canada makes the ultimate interpretation when there is a potential conflict between laws passed by Parliament and the charter of rights and freedoms. When an interpretation is made and we happen to disagree with it, let us not conclude that the court has made laws. We have to re-examine ourselves as lawmakers to ensure the laws we pass can withstand the test of the supreme law of the land.
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca): Mr. Speaker, I am glad the hon. member agrees with me in saying that the supreme court should only interpret laws rather than make them.
I have a lot of respect for my hon. friend. I strongly urge him to speak to the police officers and representatives of the police forces and to speak to the prosecution lawyers who find the charter of rights and freedoms hamstrings them dramatically.
I also suggest to the hon. member that the charter is actually discriminatory. In its tenets the charter specifically says that it is acceptable to discriminate against a group of people who have previously been deemed to have had some advantages. That is not free. That is not equal. That is not ensuring equal rights for everybody. That is damaging the rights of people and is discriminatory by its very nature.
We had the bill of rights before this charter. The bill of rights worked very well. The police were happy with it, the courts were happy with it and the people were happy with it. Unfortunately in 1982 the Liberal government of the day decided to bring in the charter of rights and freedoms which has turned our judicial process on its head. It has hamstrung the courts and the police officers in the trenches who try their very hardest under extraordinary circumstances to keep our streets safe.
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If the hon. member wanted to do the honourable thing, which I am sure he does, he would suggest to his party that we pursue the idea of going back to the bill of rights.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that this debate is a result of amendments proposed by the Senate, particularly in light of what happened in the Senate yesterday when it turned back term 17 to do with the Newfoundland school system.
This was a process undertaken by the people of Newfoundland in a truly democratic way, probably the most fundamental democratic process that could be arrived at, a referendum. As a person from outside the province of Newfoundland I would not offer any opinion as to the judgment of the people of Newfoundland. The people of Newfoundland in a true, fair, clear democratic process had an opportunity to speak and they did.
The result of the referendum then went to the Newfoundland assembly, those who were elected by the people of Newfoundland in a free, fair, democratic process. My understanding is that that House voted unanimously in favour of the motion. Then it came to this Parliament and this Parliament in a free vote substantiated the results of the referendum.
On Bill C-42, the Senate is now deciding in the same way that it did on term 17, to throw the bill back to this House. I think this indicates that within Canada's parliamentary process we truly must have absolute reform and come to a triple E Senate.
We know that the Senate is effective because it has managed to turn back term 17. We know that the Senate is effective in that it has managed to turn back Bill C-42, which is currently being debated in the House. We know the Senate is effective but the fact that it is not elected, is unaccountable and unrepresentative of
anyone in this country other than the political masters who put the senators there in the first place says reams about the Senate itself.
The Reform Party position always has been and will continue to be that while we require a House of sober second thought such as the Senate, it is absolutely essential that the House of sober second thought gain some credibility by going through a process of being elected and accountable.
Specifically on issue of Bill C-42, the main motion being debated is an amendment to Bill C-42 introduced by the government in the Senate. That is rather interesting in itself. Bill C-42 went from this place to the Senate. Then in the place of supposed sober second thought some flaws in Bill C-42 were discovered. We have reason to believe that the government of the day decided to use this method of making the renovations to Bill C-42, rather than by directly taking them into account in this House.
This House must be the place where legislation is made. It must be the place where legislation is voted on because this is the place where members are elected and are ultimately accountable to the people of Canada.
The current Judges Act does not allow any judge to accept any employment other than from the Government of Canada. The Judges Act at the moment does not allow judges to receive compensation from anyone other than the Government of Canada.
The Minister of Justice has passed orders in council approving Madam Justice Louise Arbour to work in the UN commencing last July 1. This is part of a pattern, and if I may suggest a rather arrogant pattern, that seems to have infested both the Liberals and the Conservatives. Because they have been the governing parties of Canada since Confederation, they go ahead and do these things without reference to this elected Chamber.
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There is this order in council which permitted Madam Justice Arbour to work at the UN commencing July 1. The interesting thing, which shows the arrogance of the Liberals and of the justice minister, is that these orders in council are in direct violation of section 55 of the Judges Act. But the government said to itself: ``That is no problem. We will use the rubber stamp of the House of Commons and simply get that turned around''.
Why closure yet again? Many members during the last Parliament railed against the number of times closure was used by the Conservatives. Members stood in their places and made all sorts of noises about how unjust, unfair and immoral closure was. Now we see how the government has changed. It now brings in closure at will.
Why do we have closure today? Because if this bill is not passed today the justice minister will have to issue a new order in council because the present one will expire on November 30. The justice minister maintains that the order in council is valid because Madam Justice Arbour is still being paid by the Government of Canada. He has ignored the prohibition on accepting other employment which is laid out in the Judges Act.
Many lawyers make their money on fine print. It is a rather interesting part of the whole justice process. Indeed, the niggling details will end up shooting down a plaintiff or a defendant in a civil suit. Lawyers make their money by worrying about the niggling details.
As a matter of fact, I am given to believe that even in a criminal case which is currently before the Supreme Court-the Latimer case-they are talking about the details. There has been a conviction in that case and now Mr. Latimer's lawyer is saying: ``But we did not take care of the details. Therefore, we are going to take it to the supreme court''.
What did the justice minister say in the House on November 22 in answer to a question from my colleague from St. Albert who raised the issue of Bill C-42? It is almost unbelievable. He said: ``I invite the hon. member to rise above the niggling legalisms upon which he now relies for partisan purposes and join with this government to make sure'' and so on. What kind of a justice minister does Canada have? He is the supreme lawyer in Canada and he says: ``I invite the hon. member to rise above the niggling legalisms''. Is that not what the law is all about? It is in the detail that lawyers make their money. Here we have the justice minister turning around and saying not to worry, not to sweat the small stuff.
In this case the small stuff happens to be section 55 of the Judges Act. That section says that Madam Justice Arbour should not be doing what she is doing and that the government should not have put her in a compromised position which has occurred as a direct result of the boldfaced arrogance of the Liberals.
Many Liberal members were very upset in the last Parliament about the numerous times closure was used by the Conservatives. They railed against it. It is really interesting that in rushing bills through the House the Liberals have used closure on Bill C-33, time allocation on third reading and report stage of Bill C-41 and limited committee discussion and time allocation at third reading and report stage of Bill C-68.
And what do we have with Bill C-68? We have a whole bunch of question marks. This same justice minister came forward yesterday with his proposed regulations. What he is not talking about is that again he not only does not consult with this Chamber, he not only does not consult with the members who have been elected by the people of Canada, whether it is on Bills C-33, C-41, C-68 or C-42, he does not consult with anybody. The Liberals are a power unto themselves.
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The three provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta have said they will not administer Ottawa's proposed-
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken): Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. member with some niggling legal point, but there is a rule of relevance in the Chamber. I urge the hon. member to address his remarks to Bill C-42, the bill we are discussing.
I recognize that in discussion of the use of closure he has a point, but when he gets off into the details of other bills he seems to be straying a bit far from the subject. As he knows, I am very reluctant to interrupt him on such a point but I would urge him to address his remarks to Bill C-42, the subject of discussion today, and the amendment moved by one of his colleagues to that motion.
Mr. Abbott: Mr. Speaker, I understand what you are saying. With the greatest respect, I would suggest, however, that we have within the justice department and with the justice minister a pattern relating to Bill C-42 that I would like to explore.
For example, section 745. We have today the clear, irrefutable evidence that what the justice minister should have done was completely abolish section 745 as the people of Canada asked for. This justice minister simply does not listen.
I draw to the Speaker's attention the fact that when the justice minister would turn around and in an answer to a specific question directed to Bill C-42 and say ``don't sweat the small stuff, it is only niggling little detail'', I suggest that the niggling detail is exactly the issue that we have to be discussing in relation to Bill C-42.
Again I cite as an example section 745. During the process of section 745 there was an obvious lack of consultation, a lack of taking into account the perspective of the people of this House and indeed the people of Canada. With regard to section 745 and the problem with it, and what they did with Bill C-45, by turning around and going forward with half measures they created a situation where they could attempt to make it appear as though they had actually done something.
Mr. Speaker, I draw to your attention a rather interesting article from the Calgary Sun dated September 16. This particular columnist is talking about the Liberal failure to scrap section 745 of the Criminal Code that lets first degree murderers out on parole after 15 years in jail. Because of section 745 butchers like Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olson are entitled to apply for parole.
The Reform Party has been calling for the abolition of this heinous loophole for years but it is still in effect and should be an embarrassment to any Liberal, but not to the Liberal member he is speaking about who comes from Edmonton. Her little newsletter has a headline blaring: ``Murderers Denied Parole Rights Under Section 745''. But it is simply not true. The only changes that the Liberals have proposed is that murderers will not automatically get reviewed for release and that any new mass murderers are ineligible. Bernardo and Olson are still eligible for parole after 15 years. This columnist suggests in Liberal speak that is probably success.
It is the loopholes, it is the niggling details, it is the fact that this justice minister in coming to this House with Bill C-42 actually came to this House with, as it were, a Trojan horse. It was unclear at the time when he came to this House with the bill that in fact this bill had any real implications. Certainly it was unclear that it related to the issue that the Reform Party has been driving home for the last two days with respect to Bill C-42.
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It is not only the process that the justice minister comes to this House with a Trojan horse and gets Bill C-42 through in that way, but then the government has the audacity to go to the other place to make the amendments that it wants to make when it realizes that even this Trojan horse was not put together properly.
There is a fundamental flaw with this House when the government treats this House like a rubber stamp and treats the elected representatives who are elected, after all, by the people of Canada in this way.
Let us take a look at all the bills that have come before this House. I must say that in my own committee, in taking a look at the Copyright Act, what does that have to do with Bill C-42? I will tell this House what it has to do with Bill C-42. Having had this Trojan horse brought in, having had the details not at all clear, having had the Liberals treat this House with the disrespect that they have under Bill C-42, now when Bill C-32, the Copyright Act, is before committee I, as a responsible parliamentarian, must assume that there may be a Trojan horse even in that bill.
Therefore under Bill C-42 we have the difficulty that when we have a government coming forward, treating the House with disrespect, bringing in things in a surreptitious way, we have to take a look at all the details of every bill.
With respect to the amendments that have been brought forward by our party, we have proposed in our section (b) amendment that we:
(b) strike out all the lines in section 56.1(2) and substitute the following:
``If Madam Justice Arbour elects to take leave pursuant to section 56.1(1) she may receive moving or transportation expenses and reasonable travel and other expenses, in connection with her services as Prosecutor, from the United Nations'';
(c) add the following words to section 56.1(3):
``notwithstanding any prohibition against accepting any salary fee, remuneration or other emolument described in section 57'';
(d) add the following words to section 56.1(5):
``and that benefits payable under these sections will be paid or will commence to be paid at the expiration of the leave of absence without pay''.It is the niggling detail and it is the Reform Party that is drawing to the attention of this House and through this process drawing attention to the people of Canada that currently we have a justice minister, a justice department and the Liberal government that continuously come to this House and rather than looking at the kind of detail that I have just read to this House that the Reform Party has brought, rather than dotting the is and crossing the ts and doing the job correctly, rather than treating this House with the respect that it and the people in this House deserve, the Liberals continue to come to this House and treat it like a rubber stamp: ``Oh, by the way, if we have a problem we will correct it after the fact''.
There was an example of that even in the passage of Bill C-63 the other day. With Bill C-63 there had been a number of things that had been brought up at the last minute in this House as a result of debate. The government should be commended in a small way for the fact that it did end up taking a look at some of the provisions in the bill that needed some fine tuning. I commend it for that, but I ask why we had to get into that process. Why did we not have an opportunity on Bill C-63 to actually get those issues onto the table? I suggest the reason was that government once again was treating Bill C-63 in the same way as it has Bill C-42 and all these other bills. It has treated this Parliament as a rubber stamp.
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The government very simply went through a committee process on probably the cornerstone legislation of our government or the governing of this country, democracy in this country. It simply went ahead and had a situation where it had two weeks of hearings. The interesting thing was that one of those weeks nobody was in Ottawa. We were out in our constituencies working. So it had only one week to actually consider the terms and the details of that bill.
I suggest there is an absolute irrefutable pattern here that the Liberals continuously treat this House as a rubber stamp, treat the members of Parliament with disrespect. I say that they treat us with disrespect in that they expect us to just roll over and do what is asked. They may be good enough for the Liberal backbenchers but it is not good enough for this opposition.
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I really did appreciate the speech which I just listened to by the member for Kootenay East. He talked about not sweating the details. I think he was quoting the Minister of Justice in question period last week.
The point I would like the hon. member to give the House his opinion on is while Madam Justice Arbour has been asked by the United Nations to a do a tremendously worthy job on behalf of all humanity, to go over there and uphold international law and to let international law be a beacon of light for civilization around the world, would it not be a sleight on the job that she is going to be doing if we have to trample over the Canadian law to let her go over there to uphold the law?
That seems to be the issue that the hon. member was arguing, that while no one is disputing the great responsibility and the fact that someone from Canada has been selected to do this particular position, in our haste to accommodate the United Nations to allow her to go over there and uphold the law we have trampled over our own rules.
It seems to me rather strange that we would do that because surely it would cast some kind of aspersion on her capacity over there if we find that the laws of Canada have been broken to accommodate the United Nations. That is one point I would ask him to consider.
The second point I would ask him to consider which I would like his opinion on too is this idea that Madam Justice Louise Arbour has been granted a leave of absence from the bench for as long as she is required because there is no return date in this particular motion. We do not know how long she is going to be gone, but she is on the bench. Although she has a leave of absence she is still a member of the bench in this country with the superior court in the province of Ontario.
She is what one might call a referee in the game of law. Yet now she is going to be a player. On one side she is going to be the prosecutor at the international court in The Hague. We get into this situation of being both the player and the referee. We have people in this House who are quite familiar with the game of hockey, for example, who know full well that you cannot be a referee and a player because the whole thing just tends to fall apart.
I would like to have the member's opinion on whether one should, can be or whether it is advisable under these conditions to be both a referee and a player and the fact that we have ignored our own internal laws to allow her to take over this position at the United Nations.
Mr. Abbott: Mr. Speaker, it was interesting that while my colleague was speaking I heard from the other side of the House that a person can be a player and a referee if it is a different game.
I would suggest that if the chief referee of the NHL were to suit up for the Montreal Canadiens there probably would be something of incredibility on the part of people in the stands. They would simply not accept that. In fact, even in that, which is at a totally different level to what we are talking about when we are talking
about the supreme court of Ontario, there is just no way that we could end up having it fit.
There is more to it than that.
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The reality is that within our system we are at the mercy of the judicial system as to how it in turn interprets the law. There was a very interesting exchange earlier with the member for Winnipeg and my colleague from Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca about the whole issue of whether the supreme court actually ends up making law on the basis of the charter of rights and freedoms. As a result of Pierre Trudeau and the whole thought process of the Liberals where we now have a charter industry populated by very high priced lawyers, we now have an even more of a requirement for there to be an absolute, positive, total, utter chasm between prosecution and the defence and the judiciary.
To my colleague, I would say that the ends do not justify the means. Louise Arbour will be a prosecutor in The Hague while still a member of the impartial bench of Canada. The justice minister is on record as saying in a Senate standing committee that there are no provisions in the judges act allowing her to accept this appointment. That is an important issue. There are no provisions in the judges act allowing her to accept this appointment. He said that. Yes, I agree with my colleague, one cannot play the game and be a referee at the same time no matter what the circumstances are.
An exemption for a particular person from public policy such as Madam Justice Arbour is called a private bill. Again, this did not come to the House as a private bill. Public policy goes through the House as a public bill. There is no provision in the rules for a hybrid, public-private bill.
Again we are referring to the justice minister of Canada, the chief lawyer of Canada, who is saying do not sweat the small stuff, do not worry about the niggling details. This is not good enough, not nearly good enough. I would think that any lawyer in Canada would realize that for the justice minister to say do not sweat the small stuff, do not worry about the details, would have to question the total confidence of a person in as high a position as the justice minister of Canada.
The justice minister is contravening the rules of this House by forcing this amendment through in a public bill. What has made it even worse is that he and the government are in a process of not only forcing it through the House but forcing it through the House by closure. We know there has been closure on some bills in the House which has been rather interesting. We have even seen closure and situations of people taking different positions in the House. It seems as though there is a question in the mind of this government as to whether it can actually get down to governing in a proper way. It has simply gone power hungry, power crazy on closure rather than taking the time through a process of negotiation with the Reform and with the Bloc, the official opposition, to get bills through the House in an orderly manner. But it is not doing that.
We have tabled a multi-point amendment. It makes the condition of Madam Justice Arbour's leave of absence more stringent. We insist that in this process details must be adhered to. And not withstanding the laissez faire, do not worry about the detail attitude of our justice minister, we are going to continue to act as the guardians of the Canadian justice system, notwithstanding the fact that the justice minister says do not worry about the details.
Mr. Randy White (Fraser Valley West, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to be given the opportunity to speak to Bill C-42.
I want to be absolutely sure in what I say here that you understand that I am dealing with Bill C-42. I am speaking specifically on the consequences of the political interference to a large extent in the judiciary today. In doing so I will cite a number of examples which will show that what is happening in Bill C-42 is indeed part of the problem with the judiciary today. The examples come from my riding.
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I have recently been involved with the first example. Some people will be shocked to hear it. They will wonder what exactly is going on. They will wonder how the judiciary is accountable and where we are going from here. My first example is the case of a young lady who was victimized in Aldergrove, British Columbia in my riding.
She met an Abbotsford resident, Darren Ursel, in a bar at the Alder Inn where she had gone to meet a friend who did not turn up. This young lady had a soda because she does not drink alcohol. She and Ursel got talking. Ursel suggested they go for tea. They hopped in his car, drove to Ocean Park Pizza, and stopped at a bank along the way so he could use the ATM. They had tea and coffee and he drove her back to the parking lot at the Alder Inn where her car was parked. And there the horror started.
He did not let her out of the car. He tried to kiss her. She did not want to. He became forceful and held her down. He then invaded her privacy with things that are a lot more disgusting than I should even mention in this House, and I will not. This fellow violated this woman in the worst ways one can imagine.
He went to court in my riding. The judge said that what Ursel did was aggressive, angry and sadistic to some degree and that at other times Ursel was tender. The judge took into account that Ursel had no criminal record, was remorseful and had done everything in his power to deal with the situation.
It sounds familiar. Bill C-41 was mentioned a little while ago in relation to conditional sentencing. So let us see what good old Judge Harry Boyle gave Mr. Ursel. He found him guilty, all right. Ursel was sentenced to two years less a day conditional sentencing; not one day of incarceration. This is conditional sentencing: ``If you do it again you will be sorry''. He was put on three years probation.
Today that young lady is in very bad shape. The community is appalled at that decision, and understandably so. What it really says to me is the judge really said the first rape is free, there are no consequences. That kind of lack of accountability in this country is absolutely appalling. Most people in my riding think that judge should be removed from the bench and so do I.
Ursel is walking the streets today, but the young lady is not. We have not taught him a darn thing about the horrendous acts he undertook. If I told members what he did they would be that much more ashamed of the decision that was made.
To some extent that leads me to another example in my discussion of Bill C-42. Later I will explain why this is all happening in Bill C-42. I want to talk about a young man named Arron Stewart. I know his mom and dad are listening and so I will present the facts as they gave them to me.
On March 26, 1995 their son, Arron Michael Stewart, was killed by a single stab wound to the heart. He was 23 years old. The individual responsible was an 18-year old, Scott Kent.
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When a group of males from Delta were leaving a party an altercation took place between a Langley male and one from Delta. They were separated by another Langley male. Another young fellow was accused of becoming involved in a fight and kicking another fellow down.
Kent was hit in the face by one of these young men and, in retaliation for kicking and mouthing off, Kent returned to his residence, assessed the damage to his face, stole a knife and returned to the scene. It was the crown's contention that Kent was going after another young fellow.
Kent was stopped and was asked what he had in his hand. They had seen a knife. It was mentioned that the knife was in this fellow's hand. The knife was presented. Young Aaron approached, pushed another fellow out of the way for his protection and within seconds he was stabbed. He died 15 minutes later.
This is only a very short snapshot of the events. Suffice it to say Aaron was no threat whatsoever to Kent. The evidence presented at the trial suggested that Aaron 's role was that of peacemaker. He tried to disarm or defuse the situation. According to Kent, Aaron was going to assault him.
The defence's position was self-defence. Given all the evidence it was, at best, difficult to believe and a very hard sell.
Kent was on probation for assault causing bodily harm at the time. Aaron had no record whatsoever.
The judge instructed the jury, over 40 pages, not to take this information as a propensity to violence. That is what the judge said, that he has a previous record but do not consider it.
Bob and Audrey Stewart say they feel that Aaron's life was taken in a violent manner, and it was. They felt that Kent was guilty of second degree murder. On two occasions a plea bargain for manslaughter was put to the crown and rejected. They were confident that justice would prevail and Kent would be held accountable.
On October 30, 1996 at 12.15, after 16 hours of deliberation, Kent was acquitted. The last thing the parents remember the judge saying, while he was smiling, was: ``You are free to go''.
This young fellow murdered an innocent young man. He had already been charged with assault. He was free to go.
This is one of the few countries in the world where a person can stab someone else and not be penalized. I often wonder how it is possible for someone to be free to go when they attempted to plea bargain for manslaughter, virtually admitting what had happened.
Where do these decisions come from and why? I have studied many Canadian judicial decisions over the last several years. I want to relay a few which pertain to Bill C-42. Some of them will surprise people, but I have become hardened to the kind of decisions which are made these days. I have talked to a lot of young people about these decisions and they are appalled. They do not know how to stop it. They do not know what to do.
How do judges get on a bench? Are they political appointments? Basically. With Liberal governments being in power in Canada for so many years how can we expect anything other than many Liberal judicial decisions?
One of the Liberals, I believe, just said ``and a few more yet''. If that is so, then we can expect more Liberal judicial decisions like the ones I am going to read to the House.
B.C. Supreme Court Justice Sherman Hood, before acquitting a man of sexually assaulting a North Vancouver waitress, said: ```No' sometimes means `maybe' or `wait a while'''.
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Has anyone in their life ever heard such disgusting rulings? That is an easy one. In the Northwest Territories circuit court Judge Michel Bourassa said that sexual assaults ``occur, when the woman
is drunk and passed out, the man comes along, sees a pair of hips and helps himself''. That is from this country's bench.
Many people listening may have heard B.C. county court Judge Peter Vanderhoof describe a three-year old girl. She could be anyone's child. After sentencing her attacker to 18 months probation for sexual interference as they call it today, he called the three-year old girl ``sexually aggressive''. Now I ask, is that reasonable? Is that in any way typical of what Canadians expect from this country's bench? Where do these decisions come from?
Mr. Kirkby: What does this have to do with the Judges Act?
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): An individual over on the Liberal side just asked me how this relates to the Judges Act. I think I will leave that up to the listeners because he certainly does not understand what I am talking about. He does not understand the reality between this House politically appointing judges to positions and how it affects world decisions like C-42 is doing with Louise Arbour. He does not understand that but I think other people will.
I recommend that members read the book Contempt of Court by Carsten Stroud. They will see how relevant many of the things in this book are to C-42. Some of us from British Columbia will remember the case Stroud refers to: ``David Snow was charged in Vancouver with kidnapping two women and trying to strangle a third. I quote from the judge's decision: I cannot conclude that the placing of the wire around the neck of the victim and the placing of the plastic over her head are sufficient to establish intent to kill''.
If the Liberal member does not understand the relevance between the political impact of Bill C-42 and appointing judges to the bench, in many cases Liberal judges making Liberal decisions, then that is exactly what I am trying to deliver in this message: You do not understand and therefore you should pick up and get out of here.
Let us talk about Port Hardy, B.C. provincial court judge Brian Saunderson who gave 57-year old Vernon Logan an absolute discharge. This was a decision from the bench. Even though Logan pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography, the judge said: ``The law banning child pornography violates the charter of rights because it is an infringement of one's freedom of thought, belief or opinion, as unfettered access to reading material is necessary to exercise those freedoms''.
Members are getting rowdy over there because they do not like the message but it is just too bad what they do not like because they are going to have to listen to it. If the Liberals opposite listened a little more they might understand what some of us are trying to tell them. These judicial decisions are hurting people. They are setting bad precedents.
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My favourite judge, Howard Wetston, about whom I have spoken several times, recently decided in yet another ridiculous ruling that federal prisoners have the right to vote under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I quote: ``Preventing prisoners serving more than two years from voting is too sweeping an infringement''. So first degree murderer Richard Sauvé won his case and now they all vote.
I cannot say that the member is now gone, can I, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Morrison: Nobody knew when he was here.
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): Sometimes when we do not understand what is going on it is better to vacate.
In Montreal last July two teens were sentenced to three years each in enclosed custody and two years of supervision after pleading guilty to reduced charges of second degree murder in the brutal killing of an elderly couple. The judge described the killings of the elderly couple as senseless and despicable. In delivering the sentence he also forbade those two young fellows who killed the elderly couple from possessing firearms and explosives for five years. Now is that not a dandy? In another two years they will be able to have explosives.
This country has seen it all. I am very concerned, as are my colleagues, about the relevance of politics in the judiciary today, the consequences of which are bad judicial decisions. Bill C-42 is doing just that. It will create bad judicial decisions. What do we do about it?
We heard about the judges who used cocaine and booze as an excuse for murder. Psychotic killer Michael Kruger got a few thousand dollars for being inconvenienced during a labour dispute in a prison. The judge said he was ``inconvenienced for denial of showers, therapy and a swimming pool''. That is kind of sick.
Now that I have told the House what some of the problems are, what are the solutions?
The two most important qualifications of judicial appointments in this country must be knowledge of the law and integrity. They should not be who you know, whom you work for and what political party is in power.
Lawyers must always be examined before their appointment to the bench. They should be examined on their competency in the areas of law where they will be making the decisions. If they fail, they should not be appointed. We must end political appointments, not begin them with Bill C-42. We must end them.
There has to be more predictability in sentencing in this country.
There has to be a continuous testing, or time limited appointments on the judiciary. The names of candidates for judicial appointments should be made available to the public with their background information. Who they know, who was in the last corporate boardroom, and who raised money for the campaign should not enter into it. The justice minister should not be making legislation to make it convenient for an appointment.
There should be a national code of conduct and conflict of interest rules for judges. I am not dreaming this up. This came from a report commissioned by the Canadian Judicial Council. Was it done? No. The judicial council said that disciplinary hearings against judges should be open to the public. And why not? What is wrong with that? Except it does not fit in with the mode of being involved with a political appointment or the politics of the issue.
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For absolutely certain the mandatory retirement age of judges should be lowered from 75 years to 65 years as a minimum. I think it should be lower.
Mr. McCormick: How low?
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): I am asked how low. Let us limit the terms of chief justices in most courts to seven years. How about that?
Do not think for one moment that is coming from a political bias. That is coming from the judicial council. Maybe these members should listen.
Mrs. Sharon Hayes (Port Moody-Coquitlam, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I was very interested in my hon. colleague's presentation. Certainly he reviewed not only the Judges Act as it relates to Bill C-42, but the very effect of that act on the appointments that are made and the results of those appointments. The hon. member gave us an indication of what is happening in the courtrooms across this land.
I was particularly interested in a situation he referred to with regard to an Aaron Stewart. I know my colleague's interest and I know that he works with people on the ground. Is my colleague aware of how the victims in that situation have responded to what has happened? How do they feel about this country's judicial system?
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): Mr. Speaker, as it happens, Bob and Audrey Stewart never had the opportunity to present a victim's impact statement in that case. In fact today the prosecution in British Columbia is deciding as to whether or not the case will be appealed. If it is not, certainly we will be dealing with that immediately.
I want to provide the House of Commons and the Canadian people with a real victim impact statement from two parents who did not get the opportunity to present it: ``Nothing prepared us for the early morning events of March 26, 1995. Two Courtney detachment RCMP officers came to our home to inform us that our son Aaron Michael Stewart was a victim of a stabbing incident at a house party in Langley. He had died within 15 minutes. Our nightmare began.
``In a single moment our lives were changed forever. Our grief was and is indescribable. Aaron was a wonderful son, brother, grandson, nephew, cousin and friend. We had done our level best to raise Aaron and we had nothing but pride in him. Life is very precious. We thank God for the 23 wonderful loving years we had with Aaron. We were truly blessed. Death is always very difficult regardless of age or circumstance.
``The violence surrounding Aaron's passing just increased the pain. Given his love of life and his youth, his death can only be described as a senseless tragedy. A tragedy of this magnitude happens to other people. Never do we imagine the possibility of it happening to us.
``We find it difficult to even remember the last 19 months. We were thrown into funeral preparations, courtroom appearances and media coverage, to say nothing of trying to deal with our own grief and that of our family and friends. Compounding this was the shock and outrage we all felt.
``We put our faith in the legal system fully expecting justice to prevail. The show cause hearing afforded the accused bail, a $10,000 surety and an 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. curfew. We were appalled and addressed our concerns in writing to the deputy regional crown. A new prosecutor was named and we were afforded the opportunity to be a part of the process.
``On two occasions defence counsel requested a plea bargain to manslaughter. The crown advised us of these requests but we were assured the violent nature of the crime warranted the charge of second degree murder. The requests were rejected. The eight days of preliminary inquiry in December 1995 only increased our resolve. There were 30 or 40 statements taken on that morning and over 20 witnesses called by the crown during the inquiry. We were very grateful for the overwhelming support shown by family and friends. We were never alone to face this ordeal.
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The next step in our attempt to seek justice was the trial, October of 1996. After three weeks of testimony our world ended, the jury handing down an acquittal. Justice did not prevail. Where do we go from here?''
I can only say to Robert and Audrey Stewart that we will not give up the fight for justice. We will not give up the fight for legitimate process through the judiciary. I think the Liberals should take note of what I have said here today and go back and think about all those victims out there and try to spend a little more time helping victims and not criminals.
Mr. Lee Morrison (Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, a couple of days ago I had the privilege of having a rather lengthy conversation with a few security guards here on the Hill. Many of them, having been here for a number of years, are a source of much more knowledge and perhaps intellect than most of the members opposite and so they give me reasonably good guidance.
One thing that came up from two or three of them was why do we not have an elected judiciary in this country? I tried to explain to them the pros and the cons of this as I saw it. I wonder if the hon. member, since we are talking here in Bill C-42 about a band-aid bill when the government should be revising the whole lousy system, would give me his views on whether or not we should have an elected judiciary.
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): Mr. Speaker, many people in this country today think we should have an elected judiciary. There are good points and consequences to that decision.
Overall, if we look at the American model, there is a tendency for judges to respond to a lot of political pressure from individual groups and so on. I am not sure how well that serves the process.
The difficulty here is that governments have really been involved in appointing judges. Members say it is an independent process, but it is really not. We can tell by Bill C-42 that a government is directly getting involved with the judiciary.
I like the suggestion from the Canadian Judicial Council that the terms of chief justices should be limited to seven years. That would make a difference. With some of the judges who have made bad decisions, as I have related here today, then we would only be stuck with some of these guys for a maximum of seven years but usually six, five, four or three.
If I had my way I would prefer to see a shorter term than an election of judges.
I am tabling explanatory notes at the same time and I ask that you designate an Order of the Day for consideration of the said motion.
[English]
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, for those who are watching, we are debating amendments proposed to Bill C-42. Bill C-42 attempts to legitimize the government's moves to allow Madam Justice Arbour to take a position as a prosecutor in the Hague.
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It has been said before that the issue here is neither Madam Justice Arbour nor her credentials; nor is there any question of the honour that has been accorded to her by the UN when it asked her to take this position. The issue is the process that has been followed in order to bring this about.
It is extremely and disturbingly clear that the process followed by the government has demonstrated a disregard which amounts to contempt of the due process of the law. There has been disrespect for our legislation. There has been disrespect for the House. There have been all kinds of games played in order for the government to get its wishes through.
The most disturbing thing about this is that it has become a pattern of the government. As a new member of the House, having sat here for the last three years, I have become more and more concerned and upset about this pattern of behaviour, this pattern of dealing in the House. It is not too strong a statement to say that the democratic process is being eroded little by little, day by day, in the most overt way possible by the government.
I believe the government is doing so because it believes the citizens of Canada will not know, will not realize, will not be able to really see, as they carry on their daily lives, what is happening in this institution so it feels it can away with this sort of thing.
There are some very glaring contraventions of what would be right and proper. Mr. Speaker, I know you will be interested in hearing some of my concerns because you voiced them in the last Parliament, as did many of the opposition members. We have all seen the erosion and the blatant disregard and contravention of democratic process in the House.
The Judges Act does not presently allow any judge to accept any employment except from the Government of Canada. In order to get around that, an arrangement was made whereby this justice would continue to be paid by the Government of Canada from funds provided to it by the UN. Technically the cheque was being cut by the Government of Canada although the funds originated
somewhere else through another arrangement. With a little sleight of hand, a little deception, a little under the table juggling, a clear provision of the Judges Act was simply rejigged because it was inconvenient.
The Judges Act does not allow judges to accept employment from any employer other than the Government of Canada. Of course, the employer in question is not the Government of Canada but the UN which has asked Madam Justice Arbour to be a prosecutor in the Hague.
The government found a certain provision in the Judges Act to be rather inconvenient in terms of what it wanted to do. There seems to have been plenty of evidence over the last three years as I have watched the operation of the Liberal government, that one of its guiding principles is the end justifies the means. Its guiding principle is: ``If we think something should be done, if we intend to do something, then whatever means it takes to accomplish that, even if we have to sweep aside some rather inconvenient democratic conventions, so be it''.
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We see that in committee. Committee chairmen, instead of being chosen freely and fairly by their peers, are chosen by the Prime Minister and his advisers. Then a charade is played out in committee and government members simply stand up like trained seals and vote for whoever they are told is going to be the committee chairman.
If there are procedures in the committee which are inconvenient to the minister or the government, because committees are supposed to be the masters of their own process, there is a vote by the majority, the government members on the committee, which sweeps aside long established democratic processes in order to get on with the job. After all, as government members, they know what is best in committee. Why should the rotten opposition members be able to hold up the works?
It is extremely disturbing. Government members should be very concerned about what is happening by this process. I do not think it is a secret to anybody that the democratic process, democratic conventions, democratic protections and checks and balances are cavalierly being ignored, swept under the table and run roughshod over in order for government to do what it is going to do anyway.
The government does not want to talk about how it deals with issues and how legislation, due process and democratic convention are being contravened. If we dare to stand up and talk about it, suddenly there is a problem-
Mr. McKinnon: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. We are dealing with the Judges Act. I assume we will get to that point, with the member's consent?
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to know that the member is paying close attention. It will certainly be a different experience for some of us on this side of the House.
In order to get around the inconvenience of the prohibitions in the Judges Act with respect to the appointment of Madam Justice Arbour, as it gets around a number of other inconvenient standing orders and conventions and laws that might impede the way the government wants to do things, the Minister of Justice simply had the cabinet pass an order in council approving the appointment of the justice to work for the UN commencing July 1. We are only now debating legislation that would actually legitimize the work of this justice. Of course the Senate did not approve of the legislation which it received from the government and amended it.
Again the pattern appears, where clear laws and conventions are simply ignored at the wish of the government. Canadians need to be extremely concerned about the way the government deals with issues, legislation and conventions that are inconvenient to it.
The government is using closure almost on a daily basis. That is a procedure which the government, when it was in opposition, called morally wicked and railed against. We have closure on this bill. Closure cuts off debate. The government is not allowing the voice of duly elected representatives to be heard. We cannot voice our concerns, voice our criticisms or voice our alternatives to the way this issue is being handled. That is not something the government wants to see. It is not something which my colleague who keeps getting up and trying to interrupt the remarks and the concerns that I am bringing forward wants to see.
I hope that Canadians watching this debate will wake up and realize that we are seeing the erosion of the democratic process. It is the erosion of the commitment to follow the rule of law. I find that reprehensible.
An order in council is legitimizing what is clearly prohibited by an act of Parliament. After the fact the government is trying to ram something through in order to deal with the situation.
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Also, there is an exemption for a particular person which is being dealt with in this bill. Such an exemption has always been dealt with by a private bill. Public policy goes through the House as a public bill, but this sort of policy goes through the House as a private bill. Again, the rules of the House are clearly being contravened by forcing this bill, this amendment, through as a public bill.
We see the disdain of the government for the democratic process in the way this whole thing is being carried out. We see the disdain
in so many ways, by bringing in closure, in the way committees are simply run as kangaroo operations in many cases and ignoring clear democratic conventions.
Last night we saw that the government does not even want to allow Canadians to decide who to support in their own ridings for their own candidates for the Liberal Party. I think it is very clear that we are going to have to speak out more loudly and more pointedly so that Canadians can begin to realize we simply must insist that when issues are being dealt with and when legislation is in place that it is respected and not simply ignored or dealt with in the most expeditious way possible in order for the government to get what it wants. This is dangerous.
Surely government members must be able to see how repugnant their actions are by their support of closure, interruptions of speeches that try to point out how the process needs to be tightened up and even their support of this bill which clearly contravenes legislation that has been passed by the House simply because the government finds it inconvenient. It does not allow them to do what they have decided they want to do. Therefore the legislation in this instance has to be changed.
This is a very difficult situation which must be dealt with. We must look at the larger issues which are being raised about the way the bill through the government is dealing with the issue.
Canadians who are watching this debate should take the time to phone the office of their representative and find out how the process is being carried out. Where there is a prohibition for something the government wants to do, the government does anyway by an order in council. When the matter is finally dealt with in the House, the government does all sorts of things to ignore democratic convention by bringing in closure in order to ram through what the government has decided on. This is very dangerous and very unfortunate. I hope Canadians will speak out against this sort of thing.
In Bill C-42 we have a situation where a whole legislative scheme is being changed to allow one situation to be dealt with. No matter how good the end result is which is being sought, the means can do nothing but raise concern and disapproval in the minds of Canadians and some members in the House who have a duty to represent Canadians and make sure that the process dealing with their interests is fair, open and balanced. We need to spend some time considering not only some particulars of the bill but the way it is being dealt with.
We have a Judges Act which protects the impartiality, the structure of our judiciary. There are provisions in the act to deal with the very important integrity and operation of our justice system. Because of the anomaly, a different situation, that whole act is being amended in this way in a very unconventional way for one individual.
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We in the Reform Party have tabled a multi-point amendment that puts conditions on this kind of leave by a member of our judiciary. The judges of our country are here to serve Canadians in an impartial, unbiased and unimpeded way. We have, as the House knows, put forward some amendments in order to make this kind of absence more stringent to make sure the conditions under which our judges are able to mix some of their priorities are dealt with in a way that makes it very clear that the interest of Canadians, the interest of our judicial system and judicial duties are carried out as clearly and unimpeded as possible.
I urge this House to consider those amendments carefully, to look at the fact that these amendments are intending to serve the process of this House and respect the legislation of this House and also to make sure that our judicial system does not have mixed priorities, a mixed focus, that the interest of the people of Canada come first and foremost with those who serve us on the bench. I would urge the members of this House to support the amendments that we have put forward to Bill C-42.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the member to comment, if she would, with regard to orders in council, what the definition of that is, what it really means and what we have been led to believe what it means and how such a prescribed way of doings things can apply in this particular bill through orders in council.
I would like the hon. member to respond to Bill C-68 where orders in council were used where it appears to say that the Minister of Justice when he deems it necessary may use orders in council to make certain decisions.
It is my understanding that this is for emergency situations, and very extreme events would have to lead to its use. Here in this particular bill it appears to me that it was used just because the minister chose to do so. Who should deem an order in council to be used and how should it be used?
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.
Even before I thought of running for election, before I thought of getting involved in politics, I had heard concerns raised in a number of quarters about the increasing use of orders in council which is simply a way for the cabinet to put something into effect without having recourse to the legislative process.
As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, and as some Canadians are aware, the use of this rather high handed method of putting policy in place has increased steadily over the years. As my colleague pointed out, it is now being used in ways that originally it was never intended to be used.
It simply is another example of illustrating the concern which I tried to raise respecting the way Bill C-42 has been dealt with and brought forward. There is a disrespect for the checks and balances in our democratic system for due process, for democratic conventions.
I appeal to government members. Only the support of all government members lets this kind of process go ahead. I know sometimes it is very frustrating when government members feel that opposition is simply putting forward roadblocks just to put them forward.
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However, the democratic process must be allowed to work. It may be inconvenient and frustrating but it is used to protect everyone in this country. As it is continually eroded, particularly in this House which is supposed to be the bastion of the our democratic ideals, I find it extremely worrisome. I would think it would worry the members of the government as well. Only members of the government can stop this sort of thing and simply tell the cabinet and those who are telling them what to do that we have to let this process work. That also applies to orders in council, closures, work on committees and everything else that is done in this House. We just have to put a stop to the direction we are moving in and bring us back into a more balanced way of dealing with things.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Vegreville, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for her intervention.
I was listening to my 17-year old twin boys a couple of weeks ago, who were studying the Canadian government in their social studies class. I caught the tail end of their conversation and this is what one said to the other: ``What we really have in Canada is a pretty much fairly elected dictator''. That was their assessment when they talked about how parliament and how government work in this country.
They were talking about things like the use of orders in council and something which they probably know best, Bill C-68, the gun control bill, where the Prime Minister publicly threatened any government MPs that if they dared to vote against a government bill again he would refuse to sign their nomination papers. This would mean that their political career would be ended if their papers were not signed by the Prime Minister. They cannot run as a Liberal candidate. Many got elected only because they were on the Liberal's slate last time.
Maybe my sons are not normal 17-year old kids to be talking about this kind of thing, but I am proud that they were and came to this conclusion.
I would just like to ask the hon. member to comment on the conclusions that my sons had come to about how government works or does not work in this country in terms of being a truly democratic system.
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, I would answer my colleague by saying that I should have mentioned that in my speech. I am glad these things are brought up. I did touch on this when I talked about having a governing party which does not even allow people in this country to decide who is going to be their candidate. As my colleague mentioned, we know this because it has been made public. However, I am sure that is just the tip of the iceberg because so many people are afraid to speak out about these things.
We know that backbench members especially are threatened that they will not be allowed to run as candidates again. Conversely, we know that there are some candidates who have been told that they will not have to face any competition for the nomination if they do the bidding of the Prime Minister. This again is another situation in the democratic process that is extremely worrisome.
I think we saw this with the elections bill that was just passed in this House where governments will now have all the foreknowledge and power to call an election at their own whim and whenever the circumstances are right for them. It now gives the opposition even less time to present their case to the Canadian people. Instead of 47 days, they now only have 36 days. By the time all the government messages that have been carefully crafted leading up to the election are de-spun who knows how easy it will be for the electorate to sort through the choices that are before it.
There are so many things where this government is more and more simply saying ``we are going to do what we want and if anything gets in our way or impedes that, we are simply going to sweep that kind of opposition aside''. Again I would appeal to members of this House to put a stop to this kind of movement in that direction.
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Mrs. Beryl Gaffney (Nepean, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to question the member who just spoke with regard to a question that was given to her from a previous speaker who said the Prime Minister, in particular, had threatened Liberal members of Parliament note to vote against the gun bill.
If the hon. member wants Canadians to stop the cynicism toward politicians, that is the worst rubbish I have heard. I would like that hon. member to respond. Did she really believe what that member said to her in his question?
Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, I am not a member of the Liberal caucus and never expect to be. The information I have to go on is what Liberal caucus members themselves tell other members of the House and members of the public and the press. Those allegations have been widely reportedly. I do not think they have been challenged to any substantial degree. I would suggest that those kinds of messages do not get out unless there is some substance to them.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-42.
My hon. colleague for Calgary North and other members have done a very good job of pointing to the injustice of this particular piece of legislation. They have pointed out that the minister when he was before the Senate said that there was no means to bring about the type of changes that he is now bringing about. I am not going to belabour that aspect of it. My colleagues have done a wonderful job of bringing all of that to light.
I would like to talk about how this government really does have misplaced priorities. Bill C-42 is a perfect example of that. In a day and an age where we have rising violent crime in this country, should we not be bringing in legislation that deals with crime in this country instead of worrying about ensuring we have a prosecutor in The Hague?
Some people across the way are saying we do not have violent crime in this country or that it is on the decline. Between 1960 and 1995 the incidence of violent crime per 100,000 people has gone from about 200 to just about 1,000. I do not care how it is looked at, that is a huge increase. During the last 35 years violent crime has gone up over 350 per cent and it is still on an upward trend. That is violent crime overall.
Youth crime is a very similar type of trend. In 1986 the incidence of violent crime per 100,000 was 400 and now it is up over 900. The hon. members can state opinions all they want but when they look at the real facts it is pretty clear. It is pretty clear to most Canadians, by the way, even if Liberal members do not believe it. I am trying to make the point that the government's priorities are very mixed up.
The justice minister seems to have a pretty funny idea of just what his job is. Since he came into power about three years ago the government has done virtually nothing to deal with the huge problem that we have with crime in this country. The justice minister brought down legislation that extends gay rights. He brought down legislation that introduced gun control. It it going to cost a lot of money.
As the hon. member for Wild Rose points out all the time, for the amount of money they are going to spend on gun control getting honest citizens to register their guns they could put another 20,000 cops on the beat out there and that would do a lot more to protect this country against crime than getting honest folks to register their guns. That is another example of how the government has its priorities mixed up.
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The third example, which we are talking about today, is a case of breaking both legs to ensure we can send a prosecutor to The Hague to prosecute war crimes. We do not have any problem with doing that, but if the government would invest the same amount of energy in dealing with crime in this country, if it would spend the same amount of energy in giving prosecutors and police the necessary tools to deal with crime in this country, we would have a lot safer country.
The justice minister has had three years to bring in all kinds of legislation to deal with some of the problems we have in this country. He could have dealt with youth crime, with our extremely leaky parole system. We just had the example the other day of dangerous illegal refugees and sometimes immigrants in this country the government will not deal with.
We finally pressured the immigration minister recently to deal with the problem of a dangerous sex offender who was released back into the population of Calgary. We continued to pressure her until she finally got around to doing something.
There is no excuse for the government to focus on legislation like Bill C-42 when we have all kinds of problems in our own backyard. I am concerned about how this affects individual lives, about how it really impinges on our freedom.
Not long ago I travelled with the finance committee to Toronto. I went for a jog one morning through Etobicoke. I was struck by the number of houses with bars on the windows, on all the bottom windows. I remember running by a car and seeing a ``Club'' on the steering wheel. I can imagine if I went up to the doors of houses I would see signs saying this house is protected by such and such an alarm, or beware of dog. There would probably be all kinds of deadbolts and latches on doors.
Clearly Canadians have decided they cannot count on the government to protect them against crime so they have had to resort to various means to protect themselves. That is a very sorry commentary on what this government has done with respect to dealing with crime. It has gone to great lengths to introduce Bill C-42 but what has it done for the ordinary Canadian? Zippo. Nothing. It has done absolutely nothing.
Not long ago were speaking of Ontario. Not long ago the country was gripped by the Bernardo trial. The whole country tuned in because it could not believe what had happened in this country with somebody like Paul Bernardo raping and murdering young women. Perhaps the most offensive thing of all was that in light of that horrible crime this justice minister would not even consider a return to capital punishment.
This justice minister wants to get Bill C-42 through but he will not even listen to the 70 per cent of Canadians who say they would like to have a debate on capital punishment and would like to return to the days when we had capital punishment in this country.
That is standing justice on its head. The justice minister does not have a clue what justice really means. I do not think he has any idea. When people sit in their homes because they are afraid to go out at night, that does not indicate that we have justice in this country.
In my own little community when my wife sends our boys off to school only a few hundred yards away she worries like crazy until they get home after school, and why would she not? Why would she not worry after we read what we read in the newspapers these days?
Violent crime in Canada has increased by 350 per cent since the sixties. Violent youth crime in Canada has more than doubled in the last 10 years. So why would people not be worried about that? Can we blame them?
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We get petitions in this place all the time. We get petitions calling for the government to do something with dangerous offenders, to tighten up the parole system and to reintroduce capital punishment. What happens with them? These are the voices of ordinary Canadians who are concerned about their lives. What happens? Nothing.
The government responds by introducing Bill C-42. It jams through legislation that has nothing to do with the agenda of ordinary Canadians.
It was not very long ago that Canadians were railing against the justice minister's weak changes to section 745 of the Criminal Code. I do not have to tell members in this place that ordinary Canadians want to see section 745 removed. They do not want weak amendments. They do not want to see Clifford Olson and Paul Bernardo come back into their lives through television. These people will be coming forward to apply for early release. Canadians think those people should spend the rest of their lives in jail or worse. Many people would like to see them face the death penalty. Quite frankly, I am one of those people. It is unbelievable how we protect people like Bernardo, Olson and others. It is crazy.
I cannot believe we are debating Bill C-42 when we should be debating legislation which will protect the lives of ordinary Canadians.
Our party has taken a different stance from that of the government. While the government is setting up cozy little deals for its friends in the judiciary, my colleague from Fraser Valley is putting together a victims bill of rights. He is concerned about ordinary Canadians who have suffered at the hands of animals who are currently sitting in these Holiday Inns which we call prisons. He has come up with all kinds of legislation which would give victims rights in the courts, so that instead of having the justice system stand up for the rights of criminals, we would have a justice system, for once in this country, which would stand up for ordinary citizens and people who have been victimized by crime.
Why not give victims some standing in the courts when their lives have been turned upside down? Why not allow victims some say when these cases come before the parole board? Why not force some of these criminals to come up with compensation? That should be a basic right for victims. They should have the right to go after the criminals to get the money back which they lost due to a crime which was committed against them or their family. That is basic common sense. That reflects the common sense of the common people.
We have two agendas in the country. We have the agenda of regular, law-abiding, ordinary Canadians who think there should be punishment for crime and that justice means that if someone injures someone or harms their property that they should pay a price for it. Then we have the government approach, which is quite different. The government agenda is radically different. It is completely disconnected from the agenda of regular people. Its agenda indicates that somehow criminals are the victims and we need to protect their rights. My goodness, they cannot vote in jail? Let us ensure that they can vote. That is the government's approach. We cannot have them eating macaroni and cheese for dinner. We have to ensure that they get fillet mignon.
My colleague from Fraser Valley West spoke last spring about the spring ball at a prison in Ontario where, believe it or not, the prisoners were being served fillet mignon. I would argue that ordinary Canadians, thanks to the high tax policies of the government, very seldom have a chance to eat fillet mignon. According to the Liberal government nothing is too good for the criminals and the murderers of this country. Let us make sure they have a golf course. As a matter of fact, ordinary Canadians would be alarmed and amazed to know that we have golf courses for the criminals in this country.
Instead of dealing with injustices, what does the government do? It brings forward Bill C-42. While the criminals are out golfing, while they are playing racquetball in Matsqui prison, Canadians are just scraping to get by, putting bars on their windows to be protected from the criminals out there.
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It was not very long ago when a couple of criminals walked across the golf course in British Columbia to freedom only to go on into the United States to allegedly kill somebody. This is absolutely unbelievable.
What is the priority of the government? To bring down Bill C-42 which has nothing to do with protecting the lives of ordinary citizens.
Not very long ago a prisoner who was playing racquetball at Matsqui prison in British Columbia slipped on water that was on the floor because there was a leak in the roof. He sued the government, won and taxpayers chipped in $20,000 to this prisoner who had obviously been convicted of a crime, had done something wrong to society, but he was not being punished. He was being
rewarded. He was playing racquetball. Then he took it to the Canadian public again, and got $20,000.
Does this legislation do anything to prevent that from happening? I do not see anything about that in here. The government's agenda is completely disconnected from the Canadian agenda. I do not care what party members come from. When they go to the doors of Canadians, first of all a lot of them are afraid to come to the door because there is so much crime out there. They do not know who is at the door. But when members do get a chance to talk to them they say the government has got to do something.
In three years the justice minister has done absolutely nothing to deal with the serious issues. It has all been window dressing.
The justice minister comes across as very sincere. That is a wonderful skill for a politician. However, it takes more than words to convince Canadians that the government cares about the havoc that is being wreaked on Canadian lives. It takes more than words. What we want is action.
I do not want to just talk about some of the things the government has done wrong. I want to introduce some ideas. Perhaps this would be an idea for the government when it brings down its next legislation so that it starts to take more seriously the concerns that Canadian have. Bill C-42 certainly does not address anything that Canadians are truly concerned about.
This place would be greatly impoverished if I did not take a chance right now to quote from Reform's fresh start for Canadians so that I can point out some of the things that the government should be doing.
A Reform government would enact a victims' bill of rights which puts the rights of law-abiding Canadians ahead of criminals. What a radical idea, putting the rights of victims and citizens ahead of criminals. Too bad Bill C-42 does not do that.
The Reform Party would reform criminal justice to provide safer communities, safer streets and safer homes. We would have bars on prison windows instead of bars on the homes of ordinary citizens. What a crazy idea. Too bad the government has not thought of it yet.
We would hold a binding national referendum on the return of capital punishment. As I pointed out a minute ago, right after the Bernardo trial, a poll was taken and something like 70 per cent of Canadians said: ``We want to see a return to capital punishment''. I think the people deserve to have their voices heard. We are trying to allow that to happen right now. It should happen in the form of a national referendum.
We would repeal the Liberals' costly firearms registry, Bill C-68, and replace it with meaningful laws to fight the criminal misuse of firearms. I mentioned it a minute ago but it is such a good statistic I think it bears repeating. The hon. member for Wild Rose said in a speech here in Ottawa the other night that if we could replace the registry and use that money for something else it would allow us to put 20,000 police back on the beat in Canada. Can you imagine how much safer our communities would be having 20,000 more police out there?
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One thing we want to do and which is mentioned in our fresh start program is reform the parole system and abolish early release for first degree murderers. What a revelation. I am sure my Liberal colleagues across the way would be amazed to hear such talk. Imagine abolishing the chance of parole for first degree murders. What a wonderful idea.
We would replace the Young Offenders Act with measures that hold young criminals accountable for their actions. There has been a dramatic increase in youth crime. The Liberals have tried it their way and it does not work. Reform's fresh start would make it happen.
Finally, we would pursue crime prevention through social policies that strengthen families and communities. That is a debate for another day, but I could speak for a long time on that issue alone.
Suffice to say that Bill C-42 has nothing to do with the agenda of ordinary Canadians. Despite the fact that the government has been in power for three years, it has failed completely to deal with issues that Canadians are truly concerned about. I would encourage people in the House and across the country who are listening to consider the Reform Party fresh start because I believe it deals with the concerns of ordinary Canadians in a way that the Liberal government policies do not and would truly make them feel safer in their homes and communities.
Mr. John Bryden (Hamilton-Wentworth, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to pick up on some comments that were made in the debate with respect to what I think is an untruth. I would use a much stronger word, but I cannot according to rules of the Chamber.
It is simply untrue that the Prime Minister has threatened not to sign nomination papers simply because people-
Mr. Thompson: Tell it to the press. Tell it to the press.
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): How do you know?
Mr. Bryden: Patience, gentlemen. It is simply untrue that he said that. I really resent the fact that the party that claims to speak for Canadians and which believes in truth, should actually purvey something which is absolutely untrue.
Let us compare for a second the party discipline of the Reform Party and the Liberals. It is true that in the Liberal Party and the
Liberal caucus there has been dissent. It is true that this dissent has occurred during bills like the gun control bill.
I would remind members of the Reform Party that the nine people who voted against the bill got very minimum discipline.
Mr. Ramsay: Minimum? Minimum?
Mr. Benoit: He does not even understand the problem. He does not have a clue. I do not believe it.
Mr. Thompson: Why should there be any discipline?
Mr. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, you see, this is the party that cannot allow another member to speak.
There are many members in the Liberal caucus like myself who have voted against bills, motions and amendments in the House. I have voted against a bill at second and third readings.
I was not banished from my party and I received no threats about my nomination. In fact, I continue to believe that I am highly regarded by the Prime Minister and by my colleagues. I simply voted against a motion that I believed was wrong. I voted my conscience. I voted for my constituents. I voted what Reformers claim they do, but do not do.
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): You will be disciplined.
Mr. Bryden: Many of my colleagues have done the same thing because the Liberal caucus and party accepts what we are MPs who sometimes must act on our conscience. There has been no discipline, no banishing to the back of the bus, as has been the case with the Reform Party.
If we make a comparison, we find that the member for Athabasca, the member for Nanaimo-Cowichan have been thrown out of the caucus.
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): What about the member for York South-Weston? Where is he today?
Mr. Bryden: The member for York South-Weston did leave the Liberal caucus. But I would point out that he voted against a confidence motion and he personally attacked a minister of the government. He also played to the press. We are a party and a caucus where if a member has reason for dissent, if a member acts according to his or her conscience and does not go directly to the press, then they remain a member in good standing.
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Mr. Solberg: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I accept that the member can make comments, but I am looking for a question. As we get close to the end of the 10-minute period, I see no question coming.
The Speaker: There are comments and questions. Both are legitimate. However, I know in my heart that the hon. member is coming to his question.
Mr. Bryden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If my colleagues in the Reform Party would just give me the opportunity to pose the question I shall.
I remind the Reform Party that it banished two members from its caucus for speaking out and later lost a member entirely. It banished the member for Calgary Southeast entirely. Seven MPs will be resigning, all because of the form of party discipline that the leader of the Reform Party imposes.
My question for the hon. member for Medicine Hat-
Mr. White (Fraser Valley West): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon. member is stating something that is not true. The last individual he was talking about, who he said was banished, that is not true.
The Speaker: We are going to take that question right now.
Mr. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, the question is simple. Is the Reform Party not the party of the iron fist? Is this not the party of punishment? Is this not the party of intolerance when it comes to dissent among members of its caucus?
Mr. Solberg: Mr. Speaker, that is complete nonsense. I point out, as the member acknowledges, members in his party have been disciplined and kicked off committees. They have been warned that if they do not go along with legislation they will be kicked out of the party and will not have their nomination papers signed.
I also want to point out that it has been the Reform Party that has led the way in introducing parliamentary reform by allowing our members to speak up for their constituents. Our members stand up and vote for their constituents and have done so on numerous pieces of legislation. No one sees our leader saying that our members are not allowed to do that. Absolutely not. In fact I would argue that the Reform Party, of all parties, has introduced the whole notion of parliamentary democracy and democratic change. Hopefully some day the iron fist in the Liberal Party-
The Speaker: I wish I had been here earlier. It sounds like it's a good one.
Not that I want to cut this off but it is almost two o'clock. I am going to stick around after question period because I want to hear the rest of it. We will go to Statements by Members.