sweet caramel and honey hair ([info]delux_vivens) wrote,
@ 2008-04-24 08:41:00
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Entry tags:conversations with women of color, cranky, snark, snowflakes and blowtorches

one last thing.
You know what? I cant begin to get worked up over the Open Source Boob mess.

Not because its not annoying, but because (1) it seems like everything worthwhile has already been said and (2) I have a hard time seeing a lot of people get so worked up over something that a lot of women of color have to deal with every day.

Yes, I went there.

From utter strangers feeling entitled to grab at our hair to men propositioning us for prostitution under any circumstances (waiting for the subway, heading to the office), plenty of women have to deal with the idea that we are already 'open source' or whatever the hell and have to suffer in silence to boot.

I'm just saying.

august 08 eta: since so many people are still traipsing through this post, i am including a link to the followup i posted a few days later.



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[info]bossymarmalade
2008-04-24 03:49 pm UTC (link)
From the second I read the OP talking about the first woman's "creamy" breasts or whatever, it seemed to me that there's been an underlying racialized dimension to this that hasn't been teased out.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 03:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-24 03:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bossymarmalade, 2008-04-24 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-24 04:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]polymexina, 2008-05-01 05:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2008-05-01 05:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]polymexina, 2008-05-02 02:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 04:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bossymarmalade, 2008-04-24 04:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mecurtin, 2008-04-24 09:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 09:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vito_excalibur, 2008-04-24 11:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fightingwords, 2008-04-25 01:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fightingwords, 2008-04-25 02:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shadowfae, 2008-04-24 08:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]witchsistah, 2008-04-24 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bossymarmalade, 2008-04-25 07:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kate_nepveu, 2008-04-25 06:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bossymarmalade, 2008-04-25 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ciderpress, 2008-04-25 08:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bossymarmalade, 2008-04-26 02:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ciderpress, 2008-04-26 06:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-26 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-26 06:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skywardprodigal, 2008-04-26 11:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bossymarmalade, 2008-04-26 02:35 pm UTC

[info]karnythia
2008-04-24 03:57 pm UTC (link)
Did you see the comments to ABB's Bill Clinton post about Afro touching? Some chick really seemed to think that touching random strangers because she likes their hair is okay.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 04:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-24 04:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 04:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-24 04:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 04:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-24 04:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 05:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shewhohashope, 2008-04-24 09:07 pm UTC

[info]fimbrethil
2008-04-24 04:18 pm UTC (link)
From utter strangers feeling entitled to grab at our hair to men propositioning us for prostitution under any circumstances (waiting for the subway, heading to the office), plenty of women have to deal with the idea that we are already 'open source' or whatever the hell and have to suffer in silence to boot.


Can we please extend that to people who differ in appearance from what is considered the "norm" as well? Bree and I have to put up with that touching the hair shit, too. And if I had a nickel for every comment about my ass, well jeez.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 04:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fimbrethil, 2008-04-24 05:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mecurtin, 2008-04-24 09:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 09:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fimbrethil, 2008-04-24 09:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smillaraaq, 2008-04-24 05:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hari_mirchi, 2008-04-24 06:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smillaraaq, 2008-04-24 07:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]roadnotes, 2008-04-24 08:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shadowfae, 2008-04-24 08:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hari_mirchi, 2008-04-24 08:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 10:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 08:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saskaia, 2008-04-24 11:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lizw, 2008-04-25 01:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smillaraaq, 2008-04-25 06:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lizw, 2008-04-25 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet000001, 2008-04-26 09:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smillaraaq, 2008-04-29 04:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet000001, 2008-04-29 06:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet000001, 2008-04-29 06:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]britgirlsf, 2008-05-02 05:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roadnotes, 2008-04-25 10:37 pm UTC
running over someone's feet is not an option. - [info]london_lights, 2008-05-05 08:36 am UTC
why it is different for women of color - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-07-26 01:32 am UTC
Re: why it is different for women of color - [info]hari_mirchi, 2008-07-26 06:50 am UTC
Re: why it is different for women of color - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-07-29 02:40 pm UTC

[info]sparkymonster
2008-04-24 04:49 pm UTC (link)
+1 for going there.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkymonster, 2008-04-25 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 07:36 pm UTC

[info]angelsscream
2008-04-24 05:01 pm UTC (link)
Word.

(Reply to this)


[info]witchwillow
2008-04-24 05:54 pm UTC (link)
I did say 'Me Too' over on iJay to the Open Source Women Back Each Other Up Program.

But I realized that the first put down to some fool who'd even try - when I was trying to imagine if I'd be paralyzed or not - was "Excuse me? Did we go back to the days of slavery when I wasn't looking?"

And it hit me then that I immediately assumed it'd be some stupid ass white guy going for a grope. And THEN it hit me why - Those are the damn fools I usually deal with in the day to day.

But I admit, I kept waiting for someone to bring this up - apparently there's some optimism left in me. Y'all better do me a favour and beat that shit out.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Post from (A Brown Girl In The Ring) - [info]witchwillow, 2008-04-24 07:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shadowfae, 2008-04-24 08:23 pm UTC

[info]yeloson
2008-04-24 06:15 pm UTC (link)
And here my lack of worked-up-ed-ness is simply because my expectations of white men are so, so low these days.

Like, literally, I want to give them a cookie if they can identify Iraq on a map, understand the earth revolves around the sun (and not vice versa) and that drinking bleach does not work as a good contraceptive.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shadowfae, 2008-04-24 08:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 08:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saskaia, 2008-04-24 11:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smillaraaq, 2008-04-25 07:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 07:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smillaraaq, 2008-04-25 07:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cimmerians, 2008-04-25 07:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smillaraaq, 2008-04-26 12:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cimmerians, 2008-04-28 03:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-28 06:01 pm UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 09:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shadowfae, 2008-04-24 09:16 pm UTC
MEANIE!!!!!!!!! UNICORN SLAYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 10:09 pm UTC
Re: MEANIE!!!!!!!!! UNICORN SLAYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - [info]shadowfae, 2008-04-24 11:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-24 10:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saskaia, 2008-04-24 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-24 11:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saskaia, 2008-04-24 11:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkymonster, 2008-04-25 07:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smillaraaq, 2008-04-26 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-26 02:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 12:26 am UTC
*eyes bag of belts* - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-25 12:31 am UTC
Re: *eyes bag of belts* - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 12:47 am UTC
Re: *eyes bag of belts* - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-25 12:48 am UTC
Re: *eyes bag of belts* - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 12:50 am UTC
Re: *eyes bag of belts* - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-25 12:50 am UTC
well then. - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 01:01 am UTC
Re: well then. - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-25 01:03 am UTC
Re: well then. - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 01:04 am UTC
Re: well then. - [info]witchsistah, 2008-04-25 08:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]angelsscream, 2008-04-24 11:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - quotidianlight, 2008-04-24 11:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 12:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shadowfae, 2008-04-24 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mecurtin, 2008-04-24 09:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hari_mirchi, 2008-04-24 09:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 09:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hari_mirchi, 2008-04-24 09:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yeloson, 2008-04-24 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2008-04-24 10:17 pm UTC

[info]ithiliana
2008-04-24 07:21 pm UTC (link)
You're right. My own anger was totally wrapped up with white privilege, and I only began realizing it recently when I was discussing, with another LJ person, how the whole incident focused only pretty much on young white women (I'd take a huge bet that not one of the men or women involved approached anybody with grey hair, anybody with my body weight, probably everybody was white).

Now that I've headdesked at my own blindness--and thank you!--I would like to post. May I link back here with credit to you at the start of my post?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 07:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]roadnotes, 2008-04-24 10:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyjax, 2008-04-24 11:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ithiliana, 2008-04-25 12:43 am UTC

[info]ithiliana
2008-04-24 07:22 pm UTC (link)
p.s. just looked at "snowflakes and blowtorches" tag and nearly feel out of my chair at the wonderfulness of it all!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 07:34 pm UTC

[info]sugargroupie
2008-04-24 07:43 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for saying it. I've not gotten involved in the discussions because some of the arguments have come across as a little too oblivious to other aspects for all their rage, and... yeah.

(Reply to this)


[info]elusis
2008-04-24 08:05 pm UTC (link)
I mentioned that the whole "we got consent first; no one felt pressured!" thing takes on a really problematic dimension any time it's white people touching WOC. And observed... somewhere... that the "we touched those boobs worthy of appreciation" dimension is also easily racialized.

(Reply to this)


[info]roadnotes
2008-04-24 08:09 pm UTC (link)
I may post, because there are some nasty things going on on both sides, but it's likely to be a locked post, or at least behind a cut-tag. (I know [info]theferrett and his wife online, and they're fairly intelligent, though he's: a) blinded with White Male Privilege; b) so much in love with his own voice; and c) surrounded by non-critical fans that this whole thing must have blindsided him. Dear gods: he actually has to clain his words, even when they show him to have fucked up....)

But yeah. I wonder if there were any POC at the cons, and whether they were involved, and how people would react. Creamy orbs, indeed.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shadowfae, 2008-04-24 08:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkymonster, 2008-04-25 07:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]roadnotes, 2008-04-25 10:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyjax, 2008-04-26 02:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]roadnotes, 2008-04-26 06:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-26 06:57 pm UTC

[info]shadowfae
2008-04-24 08:16 pm UTC (link)
Preach!

(Reply to this)


[info]shewhohashope
2008-04-24 09:05 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! It's lame, but I wasn't really sure about bringing up the racialised aspect. Possibly because I get less physical (being so tall and imposing) and more verbal harassment.

ie. Creepy white guys asking me extremely personal questions and offering to 'liberate' me. With their penis.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 09:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shewhohashope, 2008-04-24 09:14 pm UTC
muslims never have sex. - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 09:16 pm UTC
Re: muslims never have sex. - [info]shewhohashope, 2008-04-24 09:21 pm UTC
Re: muslims never have sex. - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 06:05 am UTC
Re: muslims never have sex. - [info]faraway66, 2008-05-02 02:00 pm UTC
Re: muslims never have sex. - [info]skywardprodigal, 2008-04-27 12:10 am UTC
Re: muslims never have sex. - [info]faraway66, 2008-05-02 02:03 pm UTC
ZOMG MUSLIMSEX!!!!! - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-05-03 04:37 pm UTC
Re: ZOMG MUSLIMSEX!!!!! - [info]faraway66, 2008-05-05 11:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkymonster, 2008-04-25 07:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 07:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkymonster, 2008-05-01 02:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2008-04-25 11:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 10:59 pm UTC

[info]darkrosetiger
2008-04-24 09:18 pm UTC (link)
What triggered my rage was the part about the woman who "shyly" came up and asked if her boobs were "good enough to be touched". Because if I had started going to cons before I was 22? That girl would have been me.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yolen, 2008-04-24 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]congogirl, 2008-04-25 11:16 am UTC
I might as well link both ways
[info]shewhohashope
2008-04-24 10:08 pm UTC (link)
I don't know if you've seen this?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: I might as well link both ways - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 10:27 pm UTC
Re: I might as well link both ways - [info]shewhohashope, 2008-04-24 10:52 pm UTC

[info]oyceter
2008-04-24 10:29 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, much of what I assumed was that it was pretty much in an all-white atmosphere, given a) the general racial make-up of cons that I know about, b) the description of the breasts and c) I am uncertain that a white man would be all overcome with gratitude to touch a WOC's breasts, given the whole history of already seeing WOC's bodies as property.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-24 10:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]princessrugger, 2008-04-24 11:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skywardprodigal, 2008-04-26 11:57 am UTC

[info]chr0me_kitten
2008-04-24 11:07 pm UTC (link)
yes and yes.

Part of the reason I *did* get worked up about it is because I came *awfully* close to going to that con this weekend with a friend who is also a woman of color. I like going to cons, but I'm also *always* aware of being both a woman and a person of color when I do.

I loved this: http://plasticsturgeon.livejournal.com/107334.html (which, when I went to go grab the link, i noticed you've seen, but I'm linking to it again anyway because it sums up a lot so well)

(Reply to this)


[info]fightingwords
2008-04-24 11:16 pm UTC (link)
I just saw this, but someone on my flist posted this yesterday:

http://sammka.livejournal.com/642619.html

(Reply to this)

This is what happens when you take off from the nets for a while....
[info]cleojones
2008-04-25 01:19 am UTC (link)
GOTDAMMIT MY EYES!!! MY BRAIN!!!

WHHHYYY???!!!

(Reply to this)

One More Thing...
[info]cleojones
2008-04-25 01:36 am UTC (link)
[info]theferrett has a record of being a proudly clueless asshole. It WOULD come from him.

(Reply to this)


[info]kitkatkaboodle
2008-04-25 02:42 am UTC (link)
i'm so glad you went there. this whole thing reeks of entitlement on the part of the "harmless white men" and the "OMG horrified!1!" white women that can't BELIEVE anyone would DREAM of doing something like this to THEM.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]darkrosetiger, 2008-04-25 07:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 07:14 pm UTC

[info]ciderpress
2008-04-25 07:50 am UTC (link)
Definitely A+++ for going there.

I know I'm livid with this "project" because I've recently found the distinct lack of personal space afforded to me completely intolerable and I know that it is a racialised issue for me, specifically.

A couple of weeks ago, at a protest, I watched three white women being asked to move politely and then was grabbed by the shoulders by a white woman and a white man and pushed to one side. No asking, no politeness, not one fucking word. I told them to not stop fucking touching me but a lifetime of people feeling free to touch my hair and my body and hands because I'm a small East Asian woman with tiny hands and smooth jet black hair and looked like a China doll?

So definitely, yes, yes, thank you so much for bringing this up.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 07:11 pm UTC

[info]aquaeri
2008-04-25 10:38 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for posting this.

I'm a white woman trying to raise my awareness of racism and this helps me understand.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-25 10:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aquaeri, 2008-04-26 12:37 am UTC

[info]8mph_ansible
2008-04-26 06:10 pm UTC (link)
Jus' made me pissed when I first read about it a few days back. My mind just kept picturing greasy ass sleazy white boys rolling up on some of the WoC I know in my life that go to cons, or would like to go a con or don't want to go because of not wanting to be bothered by such white boys.

And they want to make this public/a movement too?

On top of what all has been said, I'm still agreeing with what someone said in one of the LJ discussions about this. Something along the lines of "that's some white boy entitlement bullshit."

And after reading your entry and the comments I thought "if a MoC like myself was stupid enough to take part in their project and roll up on some white chick--shhhhhhiiiiii..."

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-04-26 06:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skywardprodigal, 2008-04-27 12:09 am UTC

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