 Chapter 6 Canada's flag until Canada otherwise decided. Does that not give it any extra status? A: I do not think a Canadian OrderinCouncil supersedes the Royal Proclamation, and I think any flag used at sea, which has the Union Jack on it, is considered by the British Admiralty, which issues the instructions in respect of whom, when and where this flag would be flown. Q: At the present time, do they issue these instructions in respect of anyone flying the Red Ensign at sea? A: I do not know. Q: But they did in the first instance. A: Yes, they did, and the reason why this colonial significance has been printed on the Red Ensign is that so many of the colonists had just that to fly on their ships, the Red Ensign with their own device. Q: I would like to follow up along that line of question- ing. Could you define a flag and an ensign? What is the proper definition of a flag and what is the pro- per definition of an ensign? A: You ought to be more descriptive of the flag. What kind of flag? Q: Let us start with a national flag. A: The ensign is a modification of the national flag which brings it down one level. If you put another badge in the flag, then you are bringing it down to another level and into a different group. Q: Let us deal now with the Red Ensign. Does the Red Ensign belong to Great Britain, does it belong to the crown vested in Great Britain? A: The regulations governing the flying of the British white, blue and red ensigns are a matter for the Ad- miralty. Q: The British Admiralty? A: Yes. Q: They come under their jurisdiction? A: Exactly. Q: So that if anybody wants to use the Red Ensign, this is granted by Admiralty authority? A: Yes. Q: I want to pursue that question. What I meant to ask is whether all the ensigns granted today are granted under Admiralty authority? A: Yes. In the United Kingdom there are many modifications of the Union Jack. For instance, the Queen's representative in all colonies at one timeand some remainhad the Union Jack upon which is placed the device of the particular colony or country, in a circle in the centre. Similarly, you can treat the blue ensign; you modify the Union Jack by putting this blue on the flag and you modify it still further by putting on the circle with the device of the colony. Q: The device of the colony? I want to start just from there. This flag, which was designed in the 1800's, shows the device of a colony. When a country decides on a flag which incorporates the Union Jack, such as Canada did with the Canadian Red Ensign which incorporates the Union Jack, is there any sign of subservience? A: There is exactly the same subservience as there is between a colony and the parent government, I would say. That is the kind of message you are sending, it is what you are conveying to the beholder, the per- son receiving the signal. AN HON. MEMBER: I have a very strong attachment for the Red Ensign and when I look at it to me it means Canada, our Canadian flag. It would be the observer who would have to decide. But, suppose we had such a flag and it was in existence for 15 to 25 years; would you then feel it might have attached to it the word "Canada" so that most people when they looked at it, would say "Canadian"? A: Well, so far as I am concerned, when I look at itthat is, a Red EnsignI note that a quarter of it is the Union Jack, which is a British flag, so far as I am concerned. It is a British Admiralty flag, no matter what you put in the fly. Throughout the whole of this evidence Colonel Duguid never deviated from his view that the only message that should be telegraphed by the flag of Canada was the signal "Canada." Dr. Arthur Lower, the second invited witness, was born at Barrie, Ontario, in 1889. He was a renowned authority on Canadian history and, like Duguid, a veteran of World War I. In his incredibly productive life, very academic honor had been showered upon him. The committee had
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