Thomas
Partridge, President of the Canadian Association of Stationary Engineers, Hamilton,
called and sworn.In December, 1886, a commission was appointed to look at various matters relating to labour and capital in Canada. The Governor General of Canada recommended that the Commission look at and report on such issues as:
“the hours of labour, and earnings of labouring men and women, and the means of promoting their material, social and intellectual and moral prosperity, and of improving and developing the productive industries of the Dominion so as to advance and improve the trade and commerce of Canada; also, of enquiring into and reporting on the practical operations of Courts of Arbitration and Conciliation in the settlement of disputes between employers and employees, and on the best mode of settling such disputes; also, of enquiring into and reporting on the expediency of placing all such matters as are to form the subjects of such enquiry under the administration of one of the Ministers of the Crown”
Essentially, the Commission met over a period of time with men, women and children from the labour force, to discuss such matters as wages, working conditions, taxation, sanitary arrangements, work hours, labour organizations, child labour, factory inspections, technical education and convict labour. The discussions were conducted in a question/answer format and later published as a report. The first report was issued on February 23, 1889. Some excerpts from the report appear below.
Thomas
Partridge, President of the Canadian Association of Stationary Engineers, Hamilton,
called and sworn.
Q. -- Is it the rule or the exception for unskilled men to be put in charge of engines?
A. -- It is the exception for unskilled men to be put in charge.
Q. -- Then, there are more skilled men in charge than unskilled?
A. -- Well, as far as that goes, I will tell you: When they get an unskilled man to look after it he will run it for a while and then they think they can do with somebody cheaper, and here is where the trouble comes in. They may put a lad in charge of it who has had no experience. That has been the case in Hamilton within the last few weeks. I would draw the line. A man may be running that engine to-day and next week a boy may be running it.
Q. -- What I want to get at is whether there are more practical engineers in charge than men who are not practical engineers?
A. -- Yes; and that is where I wish to draw the line. We wish to create competent engineers, so that if you gentlemen should go to-night, for instance, to your hotel, you could sleep there with perfect safety; it is the boiler that does all the mischief. If the engine breaks down the man will go no further, but the boiler is different. We propose to grade them: for instance, a man may be capable of taking care of an engine and boiler for steam-heating purposes; some may be capable of taking care of an engine and boiler for all practical purposes; and we grade them, on the principle of safety. We think that a man should understand the properties of steam and what is to be done in connection with boilers and engines, according to the grade of work he performs. For instance, in the hotel there is a large boiler, and you may go to sleep with a feeling of perfect safety, but in the middle of the night you may all be blown to pieces.
Q. -- If a man has no knowledge of the expansion of steam would he be considered a competent engineer?
A. -- No, sir.
Q. -- I want to ask a question on another subject. Would it be any benefit to engineers if technical education were taught in the schools?
A. -- Yes; decidedly so.
Q. -- Would you tell us, please, how it would be a benefit?
A. -- It would make them half-engineers before they got through. I know boys who want to be engineers, and they say we would like to get into your shop, but they are no more use to be engineers than my dog is, and yet they get into the shops and in positions, too, by some means or other, though they are not capable of filling them.
Geo.
T. Tuckett, Tobacco Manufacturer, Hamilton, called and sworn.
Q. -- Do you employ many hands?
A. -- About 300.
Q. -- What class of people do you employ?
A. -- Well, we employ white and coloured, male and female.
Q. -- Of what ages?
A. -- From fourteen up to about forty.
Q. -- Have you a considerable number of young persons working for you?
A. -- I should say about 120 to 150, boys and girls; they are changed from time to time. Of course we have more in the winter time than in the summer time.
Q. -- Do you think any of them are under fourteen?
A. -- Well, we have a rule that firms have to be guided by, that no one shall be employed less than fourteen. We had some factory inspectors going through the factory, and I told them we had a great deal of trouble in finding out the age, and they told me they were going to get out certificates which parents would sign.
Q. -- What are the wages that these people earn?
A. -- They average about $1.25 a day; that is what we pay ourselves. The children are paid by the "rollers," and when I said 300 hands I was counting only the grown up people -- those we pay ourselves.
Q. -- How many are employed altogether?
A. -- The average would be from 400 to 425. It depends on the season.
Q. -- Is it necessary to employ young persons in this business?
A. -- Yes; in order to strip the tobacco; the older hands would not be so nimble.
Q. -- Are these children living with their parents generally?
A. -- Generally they are mechanics' families and poor people. Some are children of widows.
Q. -- Would it not be better for them to go to school than to work for you?
A. -- Well, the mothers come to me and say that their children will not go to school, and in order to keep them off the streets, they send them to me.
Q. -- What are the sanitary conditions of the factory?
A. -- We have had three generations working in the factory until lately. The grandfather was there, and the father, and we have two sons there now, grown-up men.
Q. -- When the factory inspector was around did he find any fault with the sanitary conditions of the factory?
A. -- None whatever.
Q. -- Did this inspector make a particular and close inspection?
A. -- Yes; there were two of them. I went with them myself, and they examined the boilers, and engines and belting, &c., and saw that they were protected.
Q. -- Have you separate conveniences for the male and female employees?
A. -- Yes; all emptying into the sewer.
William J. McAndrews, Foreman Printer, called and sworn.
Q. -- With regard to the assertion made by Mr. Smith, the last witness, respecting a deaf and dumb printer, he stated that he would not be allowed to work because he was a non-union man. I understand that you want to contradict that.
A. -- I wish to say that the deaf and dumb printers never applied to the union for work; though it is a rule of the union not to give employment to non-union men, we do not want the statement to go abroad that we deprived a deaf and dumb man from working because he was a non-union man. He may have been a fair man; I had a conversation with him in the deaf and dumb alphabet, but he never asked for work, and he received help, from the printer's union.
John Hall, Foreman at the Locomotive Works at the Grand Trunk Railway, Hamilton, called and sworn.
Q. -- If a man is called to duty, but being in ill health, or for any other reason unfit for work, how do you treat him; do you compel him to work?
A. -- No; we call him at whatever hour in the day or night we require him, and if he says: "I am ill and cannot come to work," then the caller comes and reports to me, and I tell him whom to call to take his place, and the caller keeps going from one to another, sometimes to three or four, perhaps, before we get a man that is capable of going. That, of course, is an unusual thing to do, because the regulation says that he is to give us timely notice, so that a man can be provided in his place; but, whenever a man is taken ill, or has illness in his family, all he has to do is to tell us, and we make ample preparations to have his place supplied by some one who is capable of taking charge of an engine.
David Cashion, Moulder, Hamilton, called and sworn.
Q. -- Are the foundries generally comfortable to work in throughout the city?
A. -- Well, I guess they are.
Q. -- How is your own?
A. -- It is not too warm. They can't keep it warm; there is a door open all day to let the iron in, and we can't seem to work there and keep it shut.
Q. -- Is the services of the Grand Trunk considered very desirable? Would men rather work there than in the other foundries?
A. -- It is counted about the steadiest shop in this city.
Q. -- Do you have many boys learning the trade?
A. -- There are three or four in our shop.
Q. -- Is there any rule of the union fixing the number of boys to be employed?
A. -- They have a rule of one boy to eight men.
Q. -- How long do the boys serve before becoming journeymen?
A. -- About four years.
Q. -- Are these boys indentured?
A. -- No; just by word of mouth.
Q. -- Is anybody particularly interested in teaching them their trade?
A. -- As far as I can see, the men are very good in teaching them what they can, if they are not too saucy.
Q. -- Do the boys generally turn out to be good workmen at the end of four years?
A. -- I have seen some of them turned out who are not very good, in my opinion.
Q. -- Do union moulders consent to work in the same shop with non-union moulders?
A. -- Well, there are cases of it down in the Western shops, but they don't like it. Well, there are one or two who don't belong to the union and some don't like it.
James Stephenson, Moulder, Hamilton, called and sworn.
Q. -- Has your association ever considered as to what work convicts should be made to do; or, in your opinion, should they be allowed to remain idle?
A. -- That is a knotty question that should be determined by our legislators in Parliament. We send them there for such purposes.
Q. -- And they will turn around and ask the opinion of such an association as yours as to what kind of labour the convicts should be employed at?
A. -- Our body thinks they should be employed on such labour as would least interfere with free labour, and if the Government sells the products of their labour they should be sold at an equal price with the products of free labour. We see no reason why, if there are competent men in prisons, that they cannot produce certain articles just as well as free labour, that is if there are proper appliances as regards machinery, and so on; and if so, the government might as well sell their products just as high as those of free labour are sold.
Q. -- Do you not think that all the goods manufactured in prisons and sold in competition with the products of free labour should be stamped as convict labour?
A. -- It would be a good idea.
Q. -- Do you not think that such a system would prevent people from buying them?
A. -- Yes; there are people who would be prejudiced against them.
Q. -- Then, in that case, the work would not be done?
A. -- It would be done to a certain extent.
Q. -- We all agree, I suppose, that men must be employed at something?
A. -- Yes; we don't believe that convicts should be kept in idleness.
James
Sharkey, Hamilton, called and sworn.
Q. -- You work for Messrs. Tuckett & Son?
A. -- Yes.
Q. -- How old are you?
A. -- I will be fifteen next April.
Q. -- What do you do there?
A. -- Stem tobacco.
Q. -- How many hours a day do you work?
A. -- Ten hours a day.
Q. -- What time do you go to work in the morning?
A. -- Half-past seven.
Q. -- When do you get through at night?
A. -- Six.
Q. -- How long a time have you for dinner?
A. -- One hour.
Q. -- It is nine and a-half hours from the time you begin till you quit?
A. -- Yes.
Q. -- Are you paid by the week, or by what you do?
A. -- By the week.
Q. -- How much can you earn there?
A. -- Wages run from about $2.50 to $4.50 and $5.
Q. -- Do you make that much?
A. -- I make $3.50.
Q. -- Do you live with your parents?
A. -- Yes.
Q. -- Do you take your money home to them?
A. -- Yes.
Q. -- How old were you when you quit school?
A. -- I can hardly tell.
Q. -- Were you fourteen?
A. -- No.
Q. -- Thirteen?
A. -- No; I was about ten or eleven.
Q. -- How did you come to quit school at so early an age?
A. -- I went to work with a tailor on James street as a message boy.
Q. -- How long have you been working with Mr. Tuckett?
A. -- Nearly two years.
Q. -- Were you fourteen when you went there?
A. -- Not quite; very nearly.
Q. -- Do you take your money home to your father?
A. -- Yes.
Q. -- What does your father do?
A. -- He is a labourer.
Q. -- Are you very tired when you go home at night?
A. -- Not very; it is not very tiresome work.
Q. -- Are you learning the trade, so that you will be able to earn more money?
A. -- Yes.
Q. -- Do the men around you try to teach you anything, so as to help you on?
A. -- Yes; they try to teach you how to roll.
Q. -- Is there much bad language used there?
A. -- Not very much.
Q. -- Do you like the work?
A. -- Yes; very well.
Q. -- Did Mr. Tuckett give you any presents at Christmas time, or any time?
A. -- Yes; the Christmas before last he did.
Q. -- How much was it?
A. -- He have 25 cents to all the steamers.
Q. -- Are there many boys working there?
A. -- Yes; a good few.
Q. -- Are there many younger than you?
A. -- I hardly know any.
Q. -- You are the youngest?
A. -- There may be one that is about as young.
Q. -- Are there any little girls there?
A. -- Yes; girls of fourteen or fifteen.
Q. -- Do they sit down at their work all day?
A. -- Not all day; they can sit or stand, just as they like.
James Munro, Foreman Tailor; Hamilton, called and sworn.
Q. -- Have you been in any of the homes of any of these people who sew for the company?
A. -- Yes.
Q. -- What is the character of the homes?
A. -- They are well appointed homes, well furnished and comfortable in every way.
Q. -- Can you tell us something about the homes of such women; can you fix in your mind the average home of the sewing women making ready-made clothing and not employing any help.
A. -- No; I do not visit their houses very much. I have been in several of the tailors' houses, but I have not been in any of the women's houses.
Q. -- Do you think the women live in comfort -- that is, have they all the absolute necessaries of life?
A. -- Yes; both in food and clothing.
Q. -- Is that a matter of opinion or a matter of fact?
A. -- It is no opinion at all, it is a fact.
Q. -- It is what you know of your own knowledge?
A. -- If you are married, as I presume you are, your wife does not appear on the street better dressed than do these women who come and take out work.
Q. -- Their clothing indicates that they are in comfort?
A. -- Yes.
Q. -- Are these women who come to take out the work the actual sewing women, or are they those who employ others?
A. -- There are none of those who take out work and do not superintend it; that is, to see that it is done properly and help with it.
George Metcalfe, Painter, Hamilton, called and sworn.
Q. -- Is painting very hard work?
A. -- In the spring time it is, that is in the house cleaning time, when there is much harder work than the rest of the year.
Q. -- Are the men exposed to heat and cold while they are doing outside work?
A. -- Yes.
Q. -- Is there danger to the painters in regard to the scaffolds?
A. -- Yes; there is danger from the breaking of scaffolds or ladders. In fact, as a rule, painters have worse scaffolds and ladders to work on than any other mechanics.
Q. -- Is that to any extent their own fault?
A. -- The scaffolding is always put up for them. In the case of scaffolds and of ladders they have to work on whatever the bosses give them.
Q. -- Is the trade unhealthy?
A. -- Some men appear to think so, but there are men I have known who have worked at the trade up to seventy years of age. Of course, they had very strong constitutions.
Q. -- Are painters very subject to lead poisoning?
A. -- It depends on the class of work. It is inside work, what we call flatting, they are likely to get lead poisoning, provided they are kept at it for any length of time, as the turpentine carrying fumes of the lead goes into the lungs with every breath they draw.
Q. -- A witness in another town told us that if the men were careful to wash their hands, and not put their hands to their mouth they would not be subject to lead poisoning. What do you think as to that?
A. -- Of course, I have not had experience to say whether such would be the case or not; but from what I have heard and from what I think myself, I believe that a man working on flatting will be liable to get lead poisoning in the course of a few years, as there is always a certain amount of odour arising from poisonous material, and lead and some greens are very poisonous. Of course, at the present time the paints used are not so poisonous as they were in the past.
Q. -- Why?
A. -- Because the manufacturers make up the paints by a quicker process and without using so many poisons.
Q. -- They dry sooner?
A. -- I cannot answer that question. It all depends on the oil used.
Q. -- Is it not to some extent because barites is used instead of lead?
A. -- Yes; but there has been more lead used in the city now during the past three years than during the past twenty years.
Q. -- Have you a trades union?
A. -- Yes.
Q. -- Do most of the painters belong to it?
A. -- We have only been organized since May last into a new organization called the Brotherhood of Painters and Decorators. Before that we were attached to the Knights of Labor, but we did not think we could have an organization on as satisfactory a basis in that way as if we were by ourselves, as in the case of arbitration we would have men to arbitrate for us who did not know anything about the business.
Q. -- Are the rates of wages fixed by compromise between the men and the employers?
A. -- They were last winter. Most of us wished to have a basis of 20 cents per hour all round for good and bad, as it has been know to be a fact that where there was a graded scale of wages a poorer class of men received more work than the better class did; and as in the winter time, when there is mostly ordinary painting to be done, men receiving 15 cents per hour would be kept on in preference to men receiving 20 or 22 cents per hour, for one could do that class of work as well as the other.
Q. -- If employers send men out to do work do they charge by the hour for the men’s time or do they charge by the job?
A. -- In some cases they charge by the hour and in other cases they take the job by the lump.
Q. -- If they send out men whose time they charge by the hour will they send the highest priced man, or a cheap man?
A. -- It depends on how busy they are, I suppose, and the ability of the men to do the work required.
Q. -- If they send a low-priced man out to do the work will they charge the same rate per hour as if they sent a high priced man?
A. -- I have reason to believe they would.
Q. –--Do you know it as a fact?
A. -- I am not sure.
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