Please explain the structure of the youth organization Plast and its current existence in Canada and Ukraine.

Plast exists in many nations, where Ukrainians live. Its coordinating body is the Conference of Ukrainian Plast Organizations (CUPO), which chooses the world leadership - the High Plast Command (HPC), which coordinates various leadership camps, camps and the situation of Plast around the world. "Golden Mace" is a leadership camp, which occurs on the international level for scouts between the ages of 14-16. This year marks the 25th anniversary of this leadership camp in North America. I have run this leadership camp since 1988.

After Ukraine's independence in 1991, we started this kind of leadership camp in Ukraine. The first such camp in Ukraine took place in 1993. To that camp, counsellors from Canada and America came to work it into the structure of Plast in independent Ukraine. From 1993, this has become an annual camp, like in Canada. Last year, it was decided that to send someone from the West to check if whether a few years of running leadership camps in Ukraine, only for scouts from Ukraine, the level of the leadership camp is adequate to international standards, because to these leadership camps come scouts from other countries.

As an example, in Canada, this year, "Golden Mace" occured at the beginning of July. Campers hailed from America (40%), two scouts from Europe (Germany and France), and from Canada. In Ukraine, scouts from almost every region take part and from outside of Ukraine: Poland, Slovakia and from other nations where Plast exists or is just beginning.

When you speak about about leadership camp, is this a leadership camp for counsellors?

Actually, "Golden Mace" is for scouts between 14-16. This is a preperation for scouts who take an active participation in their troops and patrols. Leadership camp has the goal to instill in them a sense of leadership and show them how to do this successfully, and a sense of self improvement as well. Very important, at that age, to instill this in children -- this will benefit them in later life, in Plast, as well in community organizations, or in school.

I understand, that you emphasize various leadership aspects. Why is required for leaders in Plast and society?

Of course, that the most important is that a leader can, with his example, lead other scouts. There are various kinds of leaders and we know that there are leaders, which can lead very easily by pulling behind them, by means of force, people who follow them blindly and to a certain point follow them completely. After a while, the become dissapointed and abondon the leader. In Plast, we try to create the kind of leaders who can lead with their hard work and examples to inspire others to follow them and to work with them, not only in Plast but also in every day life. This is a difficult responsibility. Someone, beginning in early life, children, who at camp meet with counsellors, who inspire them to do work and help them with various activities, children then see that not only with orders or under some duress must various jobs, easy, or hard, pleasant, or not so pleasant. Following these leaders and watching someone who leads by his example, scouts form their own aspirations as to what they would eventually like to be.

You said that the main goal of why you traveled to Ukraine this year, was to check to what point the level and methods, which are employed there are comparable to the level and methods in the West, in Canada. What conclusions did you reach?

By the way, when I went to Ukraine, I didn't have any western ideas, nor premonitions, I expected anything. To tell the truth, I was very pleasantly surprised by the camp and by the children. The children, of course, they were selected because each troop tries to send thier best to "Golden Mace". I met children from many regions of Ukraine; from western and eastern territories, from Kharkiv, Donbas, Volyn' and Zakarpattya and from Poland as well. These children left a pleasant impression on me. The amount of Ukrainian used, of course, was very good except for the children from Krym (Crimea), but even the children from that region really made an effort to speak Ukrainian. Beyond this, the atmosphere of the camp was very similar to the atmosphere of a North American camp. Of course, here we have problems with language, but this problem did not exist at "Golden Mace" in Ukraine. But, let's say, the cooperation of the children in games or in every day conversation in kitchens or in tents, is the same. As to the proficiency of the children, I would say that it is about the same. Of course, it requires more effort to cook, but the children are accostomed to it. Our children here confront this in a different way. The execution of the program itself is very similar. Children like to listen to various tutorials on the subjects of self-education and leadership. Of course, the structure of the camp "Golden Mace" is different from an ordinary camp. During an ordinary camp there is more woodcraft, various sports and events dealing in practical scouting. At "Golden Mace" there is less of this. The daily program consists of tutorials and preperation to various events. These events are not planned by the leaders or the counsellors but are planned by the children. Therefore, the children have a responsibility to plan an orienteering game or a hike and they, as a group, plan and execute this event with the rest of the campers. For them, this is great uplifter, and that kind of upliftment shows in all children, where here, or there. It was this that made a pleasant impression on me.

Where in Ukraine did this camp take place?

This year, and I think for the last two years, "Golden Mace" occured close to the village of Yamel'nytzyain the Carpathians. This is between 40-50 km. to the south-west of Stryiy, where we got to by bus. This place is beautiful. The region is very similar to Southern Quebec or Eastern Ontario in Canada. It is hilly, has rivers (there aren't any lakes), but the terrain is very adequate fro such a camp. It is very pleasing to hike in the mountains and to be in the wilderness.

How many scouts were there?

This year there were supposed to be about 60 scouts, because this is a suitable number for such a leadership camp, 30 boys and 30 girls. It is difficult to organize events and execute tutorials if there are more scouts because the structure of the leadership camp is not suitable for this. Unfortunately, there were only 44, 22 boys and 22 girls. Only one week before camp the price of gasoline doubled and for some scouts it became impossible to arrive because the buses and trains didn't run because of a lack of fuel. As well, the costs of transportation increased so much that some scouts could not pay for there trip. 16 scouts, at the last moment, couldn't make it. This was most unfortunate! If we had had some prior knowledge, then it wouldn't have been so bad, because some scouts may not have a second chance to benefit from such a camp. As I said, this is camp for scouts between 14-16, and if they are older, unfortunately, they won't be allowed to come.

In answering several questions, you have have already characterized Plast, but maybe you would like to specify what Plast is and how the rebirth of Plast in Ukraine is coming along.

Plast in Ukraine has to create its own "identity" or self-awareness. This is the most important problem because people misinterpret what Plast is. It didn't exist for many years, then it was black listed, as some sort of political property. Yes, Plast is political, but it has other goals. People who have gone through Plast, who have become Senoir Scouts, those who are over 25 yeasr of age, become members of various community organizations. They bring with them an understanding of how to improve themselves and an undersatanding of how to work with other people. I think that Plast, with the help of such leadership camps as "Shkola Bulavnykh" ("School of Commanders"), "Lisova Shkola" ("Arborial School"), or "Golden Mace, can give scouts this knowledge and then we will have fulfilled our mission.

You mentioned other leadership camps. Maybe you could explain them in a few words?

"Golden Mace is for scouts between 14-16. In the structure of Plast, you must finish what has been begun. Therefore, for scouts between 18-20, the leadership camps "Arborial School" for boys and "School of Commanders" for girls were established. These camps occur within a camp structure, in the wilderness, to give the opportunity for a larger group of people to cooperate, recognize themselves, to meet complete strangers, and while between them, establish some authority, courage, to be able to lead them in the same way one can listen another who is leading because it is easy to give commands but it is very difficult to lead someone and it is still more difficult to obey someone else who is leading us. There are other separate leadership camps for Cub and Scout counsellors, to prepare them for work with Cubs and Scouts throughout the year.

To change our discussion, you mentioned earlier that have for along time not been in Ukraine but really for the first time since Plast was reborn. Maybe you could share your impressions of your meeting with Ukraine.

For me, there was a big surprise, because I first went to Ukraine as a person wanting its independence and I compared what I saw recently with what I saw then, in 1975, and there has been great progress. There have been great changes to even unimportant things such as the renovation of buildings or the building of roads. One thing about the people though is their apathy because they don't see a future for themselves. I think that this showed itself at camp, not so much with the scouts, because children of that age don't concern themselves with that, but in conversations with the counsellors, and the counsellors were more or less between 25-30. I noticed that they look bleakly on their futures. They have finished school, or are finishing, but they don't see a future of getting a job. I think that this has to be adressed because they are that age, where if they simply wait for a way out of a situation, then that is not good.

To add, in Canada we also have a similar problem, not so much with youth, but with professionals, this so called "Brain Drain", that is to say an escape of professionals from a country, usually to our neighbours, the United States. Well, how can we fix this? In this case, in Ukraine?

The situation is very similar. In Canada, because of its taxation system, many people are leaving, beacuse the tax rate in America is markedly lower. I think, a similar situation is occuring in Ukraine because the taxation system takes alot of money away from people who open up businesses and want to work for themselves. As long as this situation is not rectified, youth, which have some enthusiasm, will gradually get depressed. Youth has to be convinced that it is beneficial for them to roll up their sleeves and get to work.

Mr. Monchak, thank you for this discussion and I wish you the best of luck in you work.