| Yolande House, our resident journalist, and Kate Shouldice, the team Ex-pert, met with Claude Bennett at his Ottawa office on Aug. 8, 1997. Due to some technical difficulties when transcribing the following interview, some parts may be paraphrased with the consent of all parties involved. We would like to thank Doug Shouldice for his aid in overcoming these difficulties. This is the interview: | |
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How long have you been a director of the CCEA? |
 | I've been a director 30 or more years, but I've been involved with the Exhibition ever since I was ten or eleven years of age. That goes back 50 years. |
| Are you still a director now? |
| Yes, I'm a director. I'm past president. |
| When were you a city controller? |
| I was a member of city council as an alderman from 1969 to '71. I was elected to the Board of Control in 1972. |
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| What was the Board of Control? |
| Board of Control was an executive committee of council. City council at that time was made up of 20 aldermen; two aldermen for each of the ten wards. And the Board of Control was four members who were elected from the city at large. In other words, they ran across the entire city, and then the mayor. So, you had five people who were elected at large -- the mayor and the four members of the Board of Control. Each member of the board had specific responsibilities for the administration of the municipality.
In my case, for example, the planning department; the land-use development program, zoning, etc., was in the jurisdiction which I reported for. Each of the three other controllers had their own overall responsibilities. |
| When were the controllers discontinued? |
| About 1974 or '75. |
| What did they do back at that time? |
| Well, I think the secret of it was this: the Board of Control was an executive committee, which really meant that the members of council were truly what they were supposed to be. They were members of a board intended to design and develop policy. They did not administer. The board would do all of the preliminary work, and then take the final situation to council for approval - not to say that it was always passed.
But that was when being a member of council was not a full-time job. Today, in my opinion, being a member of council, both regional and city council, is still a part-time job. If it is full time, then you have to choose. There is policy and then there is administration. Try to be the policy maker, and try to be over the shoulder of the administrator, which in my opinion cannot work. |
| I understand you were a minister in the provincial government. |
| Yes, for 14 years. |
| In what position? |
| First of all, I was parliamentary secretary; then I was minister without portfolio; then minister of Industry and Tourism; then minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing; then minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture. |
| Okay, the Amusements of America/Conklin situation. I know you've been friends with the Vivonas for many years -- |
| All the year's they've been here. |
| And I know that 20 years ago you were actually quoted as saying that they should not have more than a one-year lease because you wanted them to bring in their best, and I know there has been a big debate in the last year, changing over the whole contract to Conklin, so can we get your opinions on the whole situation? |
| Yes. In my opinion, as I said, it should be a one-year contract. I say it with a depth of knowledge, and I say it from one perspective only, rather than a more broad situation. It would be wonderful to say we should do it on an annual basis; the problem is, it's a massive undertaking for anybody, be it Conklin or Vivona or the previous group that served the fair, World of Mirth. To do it on a one-year basis, they couldn't plan, and so you come to appreciate their difficulties. World of Mirth and that gang, used to get a five-year contract. And then we became more realistic, and went to three years, usually renewed after the second year of the three. I think it has helped.
With Conklin Shows, we certainly need to create a new image on the grounds for a few years. Every time you have a change -- we had a change from World of Mirth to Amusements of America, there was a dramatic change in reality to some degree, but more in appearance. That will be just as significant with Conklin. One thing which we have not taken a long distance position on, is that Conklin is a major operator. There are few operators who can come in and serve the Ottawa market, if the fair is to continue to be as successful an event as it has over the last 100 years. We will not likely ever see another American show come into Canada. That can be put down to an administrative problem. Amusements of America have a federal and provincial license to come into Canada, but it only extends for a three-year period. So if they were not to come to Canada for three years, the license lapses, then they would have to get re-certified, which would be a mammoth production. In the long range, then, if it happened that with Conklin, we did not like it, we would likely have to start going with other types of shows, which would mean we would have to go with a smaller group like the Thomas Shows, and they would not have the capability city to bring the kind of rides that Conklin or Amusements of American can provide. |
| It's sort of a catch-22 situation, where everyone hopes for the best. |
| Yes, I wish Conklin the best, I hope they do well, but it's hard for us on the board, with first and second generation Vivonas that we know. |
| Was there a problem with Amusements of America that they are not back here because of? |
| Well, lets put it this way: They were here for 30 some years, so they must have provided the right kind of opportunity, or we would have moved sooner. It's not that they had not served us. They had. Both companies are respected. I can't find anything negative to say. Any time we had a problem, we went to them, and Amusements of America were on the spot to resolve it, to find a solution to it. |
| I wonder if we could talk about the shows that have been here over the years? |
| The Exhibition has changed dramatically. Years ago, there were a lot more exhibitors and concessionaires that were of Ottawa origin, whether it was Clark's Dairy or some of the big Ottawa-based department stores with displays, be it Carson's Luggage, or Charles Ogilvy -- they were all here. Exhibitors in the true sense of the word, a local character.
Then you get to the agricultural aspect, which was much more than the animals we have here today. You had all the local farmers. There were lots of them, and they were related to people who, although they were city slickers, had their aunts and uncles who were showing their pigs or cows or horses or whatever. We had some great things when I was a kid. I had my dog in the dog show. The grounds were greater in size then than we have today. Mr. Alex Dayton, who died just recently, was very successful in this city, in the hotel and restaurant business. Dayton had a stand at the exhibition, a huge stand, for years. So, that was all part of the exhibition, the experience of the fair-goer. Many people still recall the many opportunities they had to see washing machinery or television. Television came in as a big thing at the exhibition. It was a lot of local shows. Mr. Frank Ryan of CFRA helped at the bandshell. There was a lot of fine free entertainment. Of course, there was always the excitement of the day, when at ten or eleven o'clock at night, we would draw for the winner of a car of the day. Mind you, a car then was a much more important commodity in the average home, and it would seem to have a much higher profile than with the 649 today. The grandstand shows have changed, also. When I was a kid, I was in the grandstand selling popcorn, soft drinks, ice cream. The grandstand concession at that time was run by Clark's Dairy. It was a broad-based, show-type of thing -- high wire acts. Thirty years ago or so, we would have major shows, such as the Bob Hope show. Then there was a transition. All of a sudden the huge shows were passé. The cost of the stage production; the cost of putting up the stage, the sound system. |
| And the opening of the Corel Centre and shows moving there? |
| Oh, that had something to do with it, but the demise of the grandstand show was on the horizon long before the Corel Centre opened. Back in the days of Paul Anka, we would have it packed in front of the grandstand. We would have 10,000 or 12,000 people for a show. Johnny Cash came in here, and we had 17,000 to 18,000 people.
Shows -- or major shows -- are gone. We are finding the same situation at fairs in Calgary, Edmonton, and Toronto. So we have gone back to a more realistic situation, the arena where we can control the environment. These shows can draw 5,000 or 6,000, and that is the kind of group we book. Midways changed. Years ago, we would have freak shows and girl shows. Side shows, real side shows, would come to the grounds, but the whole environment has changed; we think we are up-to-date now. Girlie shows were not uncommon, and they used to give people the opportunity to appear in the community. That is why you do it on fair grounds. But there has been a dramatic change in rides. There are much more exciting rides now. The new style roller coasters, the Kamikaze and rides like that. The Caterpillar used to be exciting. The Caterpillar was a ride where you used to turn around in a circle, and a piece of canvass would come up over you, so that you were in complete darkness. |
| What other kinds of shows are there? |
| Oh, we have many others. The dog show, or you have talent shows. You have a much broader range of rides for kids today. When I was a kid, there were not a lot of kids' rides. You went on with the adults, and the safety was not the same aspect in the rides. The popcorn and candy floss was there. You don't see the novelties anymore. There used to be a lot more special concessionaires, who would come in and sell their products, like car wax or hair cream. There was a woman who would come in and sell hair cream with lanolin. She was also a pitch woman. She did exceedingly well but she was also a pitcher; she was a showman. She could entertain for the half-hour that she had your attention. Then there was a woman who would identify things people had in the audience. There was another person with her, and she would touch things in the audience and the first woman would tell her what it was. There was obviously some kind of code between the two. |
| About what year was that? |
| That would be in the '50s. She did very well and she was also a person who would draw a crowd, a huge crowd. There were organizations. Many churches had food booths. St. James Church, St. Luke's, they were all there. The only one which survives today is St. Giles Church. There isn't the same smell or aroma anymore. |
| You said that there were more local exhibitors? Are there more national ones now? |
| No. There simply are not as many. Most concessionaires are finding it tough to find people who will work 11 days for 11 or 12 hours a day. There are certain groups who will come because they know that this is their market -- Homecrafts and things of that nature. There are certain ones who do go out. We used to have the Pure Food Building. The Pure Food building was a far cry from our Food Fair building of today. When I was a kid, there was Robin Hood, Ogilvy Rolled Oats, Habitant Pea Soup, and all of the dairies and bread companies. All of the major bread companies would all be there advertising their products. It was not just to sell them, but to advertise also. |
| Instead of just selling, they would be giving away samples? |
| Yes, more than selling, it was advertising. Over the years, they gradually stopped coming. We have not been nearly as successful as Toronto at getting some of the national chains. Loblaws or A&P, and so on, still are very active in Toronto. |
| I understand that you were once the youngest director. |
| Wouldn't be difficult to be the youngest director of the CCEA. It would be one negative thing about the CCEA is that many directors, including myself, have stayed on the board, which limits the opportunity for new and younger directors to bring in their ideas. |
| Do you still hold that record? |
| I honestly don't know. I haven't been around as long as Hubert Friel, whom I am sure you will talk to. |
| We talked to him yesterday, actually. |
| Hubert and Eddie Friel, the Friel family have been around since shortly after the First World War. |
| So, the process is that you have to be elected by the membership as a director? |
| That's correct; buy a membership to the Exhibition Association, and then the members vote. It has varied over the years as to just how it is done. It used to be five dollars and you got three free passes. There have been many changes. Today the membership fee is 20 dollars, and you receive five free admissions. There are two sections. The agricultural section and the general section. There used to be a third section for council, with representatives from the mayor and council. We have dropped that section now. There are nine agricultural directors and nine general directors. Also, there are two people from the city. The mayor, or designate, and the local councilor. Also, the chair of the region. Then there is also the past president. All the other past presidents are members of the board, but they can't vote.
It's an interesting time. The Exhibition is going through many changes. Sponsorships are becoming very important. Sprint Canada is involved in a big way. We have a much larger Asian presence and presence of members of the black community than we have ever seen before. This is to the credit of Sprint. They can sell themselves better in the community than Bell can, based on the fact that you and I, as Canadian-born, feel more of an obligation or loyalty to Mother Bell. When you get people from other countries, there is no real allegiance to Bell. That's why Sprint is able to come in here and sell to its audience very successfully. |
| What do you think of the relocation issue? |
| Relocation is one of the problems which is always with us. If you have lots of money, you can relocate. If you do not have lots of money, you can not, unless you have a benefactor who is willing to put up the money. We are looking at some opportunities; whether they will materialize or not, only time will tell. One of our biggest fears is not knowing what the city will do with this park. Our lease does not expire until 2001, but we have no idea what the city is going to do. Mind you, we have been invited to take part in some of the process. |
| So, there is not that much open communication between the city and the CCEA? |
| No. Not at all. We are only aware that the city is looking at doing certain things, but beyond that, we have no idea what the park will look like. So the Exhibition Association will have to look to see if there are any other alternatives. |
| If the next few years prove to be money-making, with Conklin and all the other changes, will that mean that you the reserve funds will go to moving? |
| The reserve funds are there to explore the possibilities of moving, but we are not committed to doing that. The Exhibition has changed very much, and we will have to take into consideration the other opportunities. We also have to look at the needs of our vendors. |
| Thanks a lot, Mr. Bennett. |
| You are more than welcome. |
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